Tai Chi, Baji, Taiji, Taijiquan...

[Knifefighter]

I'm confused. What's the difference?

[Water Dragon]

Taichi, Taiji, and Taijiquan are the same thing. Baji is an art that is somewhat similar to Chen Taijiquan. They come from the same area of China. Baji is good stuff, So is Chen Taiji. Both teach a unique way of hitting that is extremely powerful. Remember that and you should be fine.

[BaldMonk]

I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that Baji is similar to Tai Chi, when descibing what Baji is. I'm just a beginner in both styles so RAF is really the person to describe the differences in detail. Saying they are similar is saying that a wrecking ball is similar to a hand grenade. Tai Chi being the wrecking ball and Baji being the hand grenade. I'm using the analogy because for me to articulate the differences by talking about Jings and the different steps would be exhaustive. The training methods for Baji are very specific and specialized. The energy in Baji is crisp and explosive. Cross energy is an important component and goes in eight different directions. In the initial levels of training the movements are accompanied by stomping footwork to help facilitate the release of energy. With further training the energy can move inside without the stomping. It's very distinctive. If I had to compare it with a style from exterior appearance, I would say the closest one is Hsing-yi. Baji has been reffered to as Hsing-yi on steroids. I hope I've shed some light and I also hope I didn't offend by my disagreement. Perhaps my brothers or cousins can articulate what I'm tryingto say better than I can.

[RAF]

I'll just add a little here. In 1994, over a Chinese dinner and translator, Su Yu Zhang explained to me how baji and Chen's taiji were similar. Another lineage holder told me that they took one of the major Chen writings on the system and compared the trained energies (I'll avoid Jings) to baji and concluded they covered the same ground. Liu and Chen Fake met in a military academy in Beijing in 1928 and compared systems. Again, same conclusion, same trained energies but what is important is the strategy and manner in which the power is delivered. You will be hard pressed to see this in Chen's yi lu but the pao chuei form, in my observations, comes close to the tempo and flavor of baji.

In 1982, Boston demonstration of Leung (Liu's first disciple), demonstrated xing yi forms. The announcer said that some believe baji comes from xing yi others believe that xing yi comes from baji. Cartmell and Miller's book on Xing Yi neigong seems pretty close to my understanding, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, of what baji's "neigong" is all about.

My own teacher learned his Chen's taiji from Wong Meng Bi (also Du Yu Zi) who learned from Chen Fake in the 1930s or earlier. Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan. My tearcher was attracted to Wong Meng Bi's form because its expression of power looked like baji. The movements have a great deal of large and small circles but none is flowery and it looks rather plain.

I have always felt a strong kinship between Chen's taiji training and system with what I know of baji and my understanding is that Liu had tons of respect for the system. He didn't try to steal Chen's taiji or put it under the baji thumb, but in the 1970s, when there was virtually no hope of reunification between the mainland and Taiwan, he thought to preserve a great art. He created 3 levels of Chen's short forms based on his observations and discussion with Chen Fake, a zhao bao master who was his friend, and Du Ye Zi. He made the short forms to preserve the essence and so that others could learn it in a relatively quick time and not become discouraged at having to initially learn a long form. My teacher taught some of these forms at 5 colleges in Taipei and yes, I have seen them on film during that time.

As far as I know we treat baji and Chen's taiji as separate but close systems and hold nothing but the utmost respect for its practitioners and family lineage holders and also those who practice it in Jinan (home of my teacher's father).

Too much? Sorry but I too hold the utmost respect for the Chen's system. CORRECTION: CHEN XIAOWANG'S FIRST AMERCIAN DEMONSTRATION OF HIS SYSTEM AT THE TASTE OF CHINA REALLY LEFT AN IMPRESSION THAT NEVER LEFT.
(How could you let me get by with that Freudian slip of my initial post: "Chen Fake's first American demonstration of his system at the Taste of China really left an impression that never left". In my dreams! Or was this what you were referring to Walter?)

The story of Yang's taiji is another ball of wax.

[Walter Joyce]

RAF,
I love your posts.

Walter

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by RAF
... Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan. ...

Something I would like to add to this.

Haven't seen it for myself, but got it from good authority.

Apperantly Chen Pei Shan and Chen Peilin (Brother) execute Xiao Jia differently, not sure about the way Chen Peiju (Sister) does it if it is 3rd expression or more in line with one of the brothers.

Differences can be clearly seen in the way some movements like "Yan Shou Chui" are executed.

I have also heard that Chen FaKe learned Xiao Jia, but I think that for a long time it was only taught to Family while Liao Jia ws the form taught to outsiders.

Might be wrong though.

Will have more info after I get the Xiao Jia Books and VCD to compare against Chen Peishans material.

[RAF]

If Chen Peiju is the woman on Roam About The Taiji World demonstrating the xiao jia form then it is much closer in flavor to what I play and does not resemble the flavor of Chen Peishen.

I have private footage of what I think is her in Chen Jia Gou, private demonstration, and she is older now a bit more heavier but very powerful with really strong fajing expression.

There are just so many different tastes and flavors, can't anyone find some old footage of Chen Fake demonstrating his system? The benchmark would be nice.

Thanks Walter, I hope we all can build bridges instead of digging ditches!

[Laughing Cow]

RAF.

I haven't seen her yet.

But at this link you there are pics of both her and Chen Peishan.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html

Cheers.

[GroungJing]

Having establish that bajiquan is simular to Chen style Taijiquan what is Piguazhange?

I've just heard this art is often taught along with Bajiquan.

Also I've heard that Bajiquan is close to Xingyiquan in it's structure i.e. (being simple but complex and no non-sense straight to the point etc......

[RAF]

Laughing Cow:

I am not sure that is her. Although they use the same color outfit, the woman I have in Chen Jia Gou footage is much heavier (not fatter but big boned) and extremely powerful.

Ground Jing:

James Guo, a formal student of Liu and one of the sharpest martial artists I have ever met has a write-up on piguazhang and its relationship to baji:

http://www.bajimen.com/

Part II of the article cited below shows some of the basic single-moving postures. Pigua has been referred to the Yin side of the baji/pigua system but pigua and baji also are stand-alone systems.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajipigua2.htm

Somewhere else we posted how the techniques of baji/pigua get integrated into the postures. I have seen this in the 2nd level of Liu Da Kai (6 big opening).

I'll stop here. I think this topic has pretty much been covered over the last year and there really isn't anything new to add.

[GroungJing]

Thanks RAF

[count]

RAF,
You guys give away way too much good stuff. If you are interested, one of Sifu Tsou's students wrote an article for our first of the year newsletter. It is about the piqua training camp they had just this past fall. I wish I had gone. They covered some training methods for developing piqua power and the palm. They also covered the Pai Da training. I wonder why the student who wrote the article didn't write about it? Anyway, one of the students quotes about why piqua with baji.

Ultimately, Sifu explained, Piqua compliments Baji nicely since Baji is primarily a close distance or even no distance fighting style. Piqua,on the other hand,can be used for long range striking and defense,as well as opening an opponent ’s gate or closing the gap for a close quarters Baji attack.

If I ever get board with bagua, piqua is next on my list.

If you our interested in reading our newsletter you can download a copy at our Chi Kung International web site. Check out the action shots during the bag training sessions.

[RAF]

Count:

Your newsletter looks very good! Nice job. Looks like you guys are having tons of fun and learning a lot too!

Later.

[Laughing Cow]

RAF.

My own teacher learned his Chen's taiji from Wong Meng Bi (also Du Yu Zi) who learned from Chen Fake in the 1930s or earlier. Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan.

Is it possible for you post me the movement list of your first road.

I would like to compare it to the CPS & FCL Forms, there are movements in the Small Frame Form (Yi Lu) that are not contained the Large Frame form(Yi Lu).

Thanks.

P.S.: The list can be either in english or chinese.

[RAF]

Actually we have never done that and thats a future project.

However, most of the names, it seemes to me, are pretty close to what Du Ye Zi played. Some of the beginning of the form closely resembles the first 10 movements of what Adam Hsu displays on his Hu Lei Jia (Hu Long Jia)/

This might get you started:

http://www.greatlakeswushu.com/1-18.html

Here is a way to short of a clip of the first Abstraction of Chen's put together by Liu:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/videos.htm

Master Su's Chen abstraction is pretty close to what we do but the flavor is really quite different. The first abstraction we play has no power, is played very smoothly and relatively low (and that is how I see it resemble Yang's taiji The postures and movements follow closely to Yang's form)

Notice the high pat on horse and its minor difference. In the second level we turn around and do a double kick. In the 3rd level we turn around do a double kick and a tornado kick. Our yi lu has a tornado kick also. I wish it were possible to show you the differences personally. Its not that much of a difference in psotures as it is the compactness of the circles and arcs. There once was a clip on the American Chen Taiiji site by Zhu TianCai whose opening of xiao jia was almost identical. http://www.americanchentaichi.com/

In the 3rd level our opening followed by jin gong dao chui employs a relatively high snap kick. I saw a clip in the 80s of Feng Zhiqiang start his form this way but have never seen anyone else do it. Often between movements 5 and 6, dan bian and jin gong dao chui I will use this kick.

If I can get Tony's attention, I will try to get him in the future to put the names out. However, as I warned, the flavor and movments are different than Chen Peishen's (at least what he put on his first tape many, many years ago). In fact, in my observation, Chen Peishen's form looks closer to the standard forms currently being played on the market.

I also most readily admit that my forms really are bastyerdized. However, almost every teachers form is personalized. What is interesting is that the abstracted forms might provide a glimpse into what some of the older iterations of Chen's looked like. Du Yi Ze got his structure from Chen Fake's father, Chen Yen Xi. However, always keep in mind that older or original doesn't necessarily imply better. Sometimes Masters, over their lifetime, revise forms such that their first generation students don't look like their last generational students. Sometimes the Master revises on the basis of his life experiences (what he did in his 20s may have not turned out to be functional or effective in 40s,50s, or 60s) or he may not been able to physically perform the material of his 20s.

Just a little food for thought.