Strength without weight gains, but no time...

[Merryprankster]

I'm very familiar with O-lifts. Used to be a shotputter and discus thrower.

I was just trying to see if somebody had any revelations on the subject

[fa_jing]

Hey does anyone do the military press (front) with a leg assist? That was a great one when I was lifiting weights.

[Ford Prefect]

Merry,

All strength with no mass gains things can be broken down to:

Heavy Weight (large % of 1RM); Low reps(1-5); Long rest(3 minutes)

Just follow those principles and you'll be set.


Fa-Jing,

It's called a push-press. Good exercise.

[Merryprankster]

Ford, that's what I figured.

Fa-Jing, the push press was/is one of my favorite exercises.

[CD Lee]

Abobo said

Those are conflicting goals, really, so trying to do both at once can be extremely difficult
to do (unless, like yourself, the person is just getting into lifting weights).

Not true at all. If you have extra fat in the range of 20 lbs, even 10 lbs (which is a lot of fat BTW...), if you do nothing except lift weights, you will begin to increase your muscular percentage vs. fat percentage. If you are dieting or at least not overeating, you will start to lose fat, although you may increase weight or maintain. But you can easily lose fat while gaining muscle.
This is what thousands have done with the Body for Life Program by Bill Phillips. They lose fat, and gain muscle. Plus, you body requires 8 times more food than fat does to maintain. So if you increase your muscle percentage, you start to starve your fat supplies in a sense.

Now, a lot of people try to gain muscle by overeating and taking big protein shakes, and increasing their caloric intake significanly beyond what their body requires to maintain a given weight. You bet you will gain muscle AND fat with that approach. If you diet properly, however, you will not always gain fat while gaining muscle.

If you have a low bodyfat percentage, then yes, you may gain some fat trying to force extra muscle on. Like I said, it depends mainly on the amount of food people are stuffing down their pipes more than anything else.

Also, remember, people who have muscles and are still somewhat fatty, have fat inside their muscles as well as fat outside their muscles. So even changing the BF percentage, may inrease their muscle mass significanly without gaining much size.

As far as just starting, I lifted weights and did bodybuilding for 9 years staight when younger. I have just stared to lift again to get some strength back, and starve the fat. It is working so far. Don't jinx me!

[CD Lee]

Hey you gym rats or ex-gym rats, check this link out. If you have ever lifted regularly in a gym, you will laugh your @ss off reading these stories!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/embar.htm

[BrentCarey]

This post has been removed because the people that are responding to it are not reading it thoroughly anyway.

[Ford Prefect]

Moving more weight with fewer reps and more rest between sets tends to contribute to hypertrophy. Moving less weight with more reps and less rest between sets tends to contribute more to endurance.

This is an old myth in American weight training. It has been disproven a long a time ago. Moving less weight with more reps(10-15 reps) and less rest is exactly how a typical bodybuilder trains. I might be going out on a limb saying this, but they have a decent amount of hypertrophy...

So, I would propose that you consider an endurance program rather than a strength program if that is consistent with your goals.

It is quite easy to gain a lot of strength with little weight gain in a limitted time per workout and with minimal disturbance to his MA training (ie DOMS). That is his goal...

OK, here comes the really useful advice. Remember that I said that a strength program tends to contribute to hypertrophy.

Sorry bud. I don't mean to pick your post apart, but we are trying to move away from common weight training misconceptions here, and this is one of them. The above comment is wrong.

I'm not attacking you personally, so please don't take it that way. Your post is just filled with old misconceptions and myths that have been plaguing the average trainee for decades. Most strength coaches "in the know" are well aware of these misconceptions, but the average Joe usually believes what he reads in Muscle Media and still believes in spot reduction.

[BrentCarey]

This post has been removed because the people that are responding to it are not reading it thoroughly anyway.

[BrentCarey]

This post has been removed because the people that are responding to it are not reading it thoroughly anyway.

[IronFist]

BrentCarey said:

Incidentally, there is very little reason to do as few as 1-5 reps - especially in a strength program.

Dude... um... where did you learn this? Show me one effective strength cycle that doesn't involve low reps, particularly toward the end of the cycle.

Or, just explain to me why lifting heavy weights (ie. low reps) is NOT a good way to build strength, which is essentially what you've said in your post above. So, what you're saying is, to build raw strength, it's best to lift lighter weights at higher reps (6+ reps)? I don't think so.

No. Strength programs do tend to contribute to hypertrophy

I'll be sure to tell that to the 140lb Olympic lifters.

IronFist

[BrentCarey]

This post has been removed because the people that are responding to it are not reading it thoroughly anyway.

[Ford Prefect]

Brent,

No offense, but being a personal trainer really doesn't mean squat. They are often mocked for subscribing to old American myths of strength training. The weight lifting which you described in your post was chaulk full of them. (the diet stuff was generally fine)

I would be interested to see any credible research that support this. I have completed NASM, ACE, and Apex certifications, and these courses all support my assertion.

How about reading "Superfitness" by Mel Siff which about all professional strength coaches would agree is the most comprehensive strength and conditioning book around in english. You could also check with Westside Barbell who have put Mel's work into effect to become the premier powerlifting gym in the world with mupltiple 1,000 lbs squatters and 700+lbs benchers.

Better yet, you could just look at elite hypertrophy athletes (bodybuilders) and elite strength athletes (powerlifters and olympic lifters). The typical bodybuilding program consists of a high volume mix of 8-20 reps and short rest periods. Of course the men that recommend such an approach for hypertrophy are know-nothings like Arnold, Frank Zane, Franco Columbo, Ronnie Coleman, etc; not to mention men like Mel Siff, Charles Polquin, Ian King, Pavel Tsatsouline, Brooks Kubrik, John Davies, etc. These are only men who have either put their knowledge about hypertrophy to use to become Mr Olympia, but the second list are men who train NCAA div 1, NFL, NHL, MLB, and NBA sports teams.

Then take a look at powerlifters and olympic lifters. They primarily in the 1-3 rep range, yet one look at the any elite-class powerlifter in the 120-145 lbs weight class would tell you that he OR SHE could most likely outlift most bodybuilders. Their constant training with maximal weights with long rest periods has not caused them to undergo much hypertrophy at all.

You could always reference the Energetic Theory of Muscle Hypertrophy as well. Medvedyev, a Soviet weight lifting coach, has done extensive research on this theory and has helped it become the most widely accepted theory on muscle hypertrophy around. After all, our "cutting edge" strength training info just arriving in the US is from the collapse of the Soviets and Eastern Block states a la Siff, Pavel, King, Poliquin, etc. There is a reason why they dominated the Olympic scene for so long over their "western trained" American colleagues.

While the Energetic Theory of Muscle Hypertrophy does show that lifting heavy weights (5-8 reps) can well premote (sarcoplasmic - ie lots of size) hypertrophy, this only when it is combined with short rest periods AND high volume. However, it also states that heavy weights (1-5 reps), long rest periods, and low volume will cause some myfabrillar/sarcomere hypertrophy, but that doesn't equate to muscle size, just density. Most gains are neurological in nature.

I still contend that mass will be managed most effectively through nutrition.

I don't contend that.

No. Strength programs do tend to contribute to hypertrophy. They don't have to, but they do tend to. I am also not saying that a strength program will make you huge. I am just saying what I just said. Remember here that muscle mass gain does not necessarily translate to increased size, just increased mass.

Please be more clear then. The original question was about not gaining mass, but still gaining strength. You can use the terms sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and myofabrillar/sarcomere hypertrophy to better explain which effect you are talking about. I only use "sarcomere" hypertrophy because most western personal trainer programs teach this term rather than the more commonly accepted myofabrillar hypertrophy.

The proof is in the results.

Exactly. Now look at elite hypertrophy athletes, elite strength athletes, and elite strength and conditioning coaches.

If my experience has shown me nothing else, it has shown me that two people with identical goals may require drastically different programs.

This is true but misleading. Some people will still undergo massive hypertrophy with volume and intensity that would do nothing for another person. This is usually a case of body type and nutrition though. There are other factors in each individuals energy system, but I'm talking about rule; not the exception.

For research, try reading:

"Super Training" and "Facts and Fallacies of Fitness" by Mel Siff, PhD (Highly respected PhD in strength/fitness training in the world. Any other PhD in sports related sciences is guaranteed to have read his work. His influence can be found extensively in the USA)

"Power to the People" by Pavel Tsatsouline

You may be able to find the translated works of Medvedyev.

Works by Ian King, Charles Poliquin, John Davies, Dave tate, Louie Simmons. Works on methods used by Soviet, German, Hungarian, etc olympic lifters.

I'd say Fact and Fallacies is great place to start though. It breaks down all the misconceptions that traditional western training holds as truth.

[Ford Prefect]

Siff was Senior Lecturer in mechanical engineering at the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa for many years, where his major areas of research were biomechanics, ergonomics, strength conditioning and injury rehabilitation. His Master degree (Applied Mathematics) was awarded summa cum laude in brain research and his PhD was in physiology, specializing in biomechanics. He has presented papers internationally at conferences in sports science, physiology, physiotherapy, sports medicine, psychology, engineering, ergonomics, physical education, linguistics and communication. He has published widely and lectured in many countries. He is a former weightlifter who received university, provincial and national awards for many years, he was chairman of the South African Universities Weightlifting Association for more than two decades and was manager-coach of the South African national weightlifting team in 1983 and 1984. He now lives in the U.S. and has an internet site called Supertraining
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining). Both the site and the book are interesting resources for information.

I just wanted you to know that I'm not talking about some hack. He has lectured and instructed countless teams, coaches, and universites in numerous countries. He is considered one the the fore-most experts on strength training in the world. He has researched his work from decades of research from trainers and scientists in both the East and the West.

[CD Lee]

Ford Perfect -

I just wanted to let you know that your earlier post on sports authorities, credentials, myths, and hypertrophy theory was great. Filled not only with great information on strength training approaches and effects, but a mountain of leading edge references. One could take that one post, and go out over months, buying those books, and doing research, and be very well informed on sports science. Just wanted to say thanks.

I used to read Arnold's works, Franco, all the muscle mag stuff. I am outdated about 20 years on some things. I am catching up again on nutrition, but I need to check out some of the works you mentioned.

One experience I'll share is that I read a Russian approach in high school to build strength in some magazine. I was in a weightlifting class, in which the coach could have cared less if anybody did anything right. So me and my friend decided to follow the Russian thing I had read in a mag, warming up and doing only 2 reps per set. Our strength shot up dramatically. We did this on the bench for maybe 6 months, and I was able to acieve a free weight bench press of 275 at a weight of only 148 lbs. This was a huge jump for both of us personally, and we were amazed at the gains in actual strength. I abandoned the approach shortly thereafter, as it was only an experiement and I liked the 10 rep stuff.

Anyways, thanks for the wealth of info, but even better the technical references!