Chi only exists if you believe in it.

[Ming Yue]

I'm gonna echo souljah a little,

I don't see why most of you see the concept of chi as being so mystical. To me, it's just energy, whether you call it life energy or life force or whatever.

We direct our energy all the time. When you think about lifting a coffee cup, for example, you potentiate the energy to do it before you actually act. You think "mmmm cofffeeee" and your brain goes:

locate cup
reach out
open hand
touch cup
close hand
lift cup
bend elbow
drink
needs sugar

Now, in the quantum amount of time between the thought and the action, the energy is poised to fire the muscles. it's potentiated. If you DONT pick up the cup, the energy moves on as planned to keep your heart beating or your fingers typing and you never missed a beat. But for an instant, just the thought of action prepared the energy required to complete the action.

Recent experiments with prosthetic devices have been working toward using thought to control external devices. you think about closing the prosthetic hand, and it closes. Specifically at this point, subjects have moved objects on a computer screen just by thinking about it. Granted, the energy in this case is generated externally, but it is called upon internally, by the subject's thought alone.

I know I may be oversimplifying, but why then, can't it be acceptable to you that with practice and concentration, amounts of human energy can be potentiated internally and directed consciously into a specific action? Even amounts beyond what we think we are usually capable of?

We have accepted that our bodies are actually capable of much beyond what the physics of our actual structure dictate we should be capable of. We're not supposed to be able to run a mile as fast as has been done by some athletes. Of course it's finite, we can't run that fast forever, but that said, why is it that you don't think our energy can be tapped beyond what we understand to be our normal limit and directed into an action or toward a target?

[ZIM]

you know, the more i learn about body mechanics and using muscles i didn't know i had, the more i get involved with rotation and adductions, the more i become aware of this 'something else'.

i think 'it' has something to do with chi, but thats the term we are given by these arts rather than any western recognized term... i think maybe in the west we'd previously referred to it as 'vitality' [in a historical sense] and that we'd thrown baby out with bathwater when we'd discredited the 'vitalism' movement [thanks, AMA!]. exploring the tenets of that movement gives a western base, imo. in other words, we defined it out of existence...can't test what isn't recognized.

i think also that our basic non-awareness of this 'energy' is due in part to our lack of connection to ourselves [obvious] as well as our typical bodily movements, given the nature of our common societies [uncomfy chairs, cement walks, eating while standing, the psychological popularity of having stress or depression [!], never bearing loads correctly [if any at all], the 'woe's me' fad /miserable childhood trend /'rugged individualist' myth etc.] which just take us further away from feeling it. thats not so obvious- it takes a lot of self-remembrance to change it.

it might seem like some of these are not related to body, but they are! its all reflected in how you carry yourself, day to day..

a lot of the work to finding a way to 'it' lies in uncovering obstacles and clearing the path, then its just a sort of 'aha!' nothing too mystical in that. the further stuff that we admire so greatly is just, in many ways, deeper explorations of the same principle in other areas [mind, etc.]

I should add that i'm speaking in relation to mostly internal qiqong, not the external variations, tho there can be a lot of common ground...

[Chang Style Novice]

How does psychosomatic illness fit into the notion of qi existing only for believers? If a healthy patient can raise his or her temperature to a fever, is that directing one's qi? Sound's like it is to me. Yogis and qigong masters are able to lower their body temperature and slow down their heart rate - more of the same stuff, sounds like. The way I see it, qi certainly exists in the form of vital energy. There's something that's different about living and dead tissue - may as well call it qi, right? We aren't - yet -able to measure it per se, and as long as we have charlatans like Rich Mooney overstating the case for what qi is and what it's capable of they are going to succeed in discrediting the notion and blurring the general scientific community's perception of it.

Let's try another definition. Instead of vital energy, qi is what permits someone is able to effect their body with their mind in a fashion other than simple motor function. Or maybe that's i. I don't pretend to really understand all these chinese terms.

[ZIM]

CSN- sorry, Rich Mooney? Cashed in on the cult, did he? Really, not familiar. Maybe thats good.

Agreed re: trying another defintion- what my point is, is that we'd thrown it out before getting it down to science, is all... i think we were, historically now, begininng to get a clue.

[Chang Style Novice]

Run a search for him on google - and make sure your stomach is empty.

[StarBoy]

it usually is to the believer

Once again, in that case we are not talking about truth, but perception.

Just because chi/qi is outside or beyond the boundaries of the western science 'BOX' doesnt mean its not possible.

I never said it wasn't possible. I said its existence can't be confirmed.

I don't see why most of you see the concept of chi as being so mystical. To me, it's just energy, whether you call it life energy or life force or whatever.

When I am addressing the nature of Chi, I'm addressing chi by its "mystical" definition.

How does psychosomatic illness fit into the notion of qi existing only for believers? If a healthy patient can raise his or her temperature to a fever, is that directing one's qi?

I disagree with this. You don't need to be a Qigong master to **** around with your body temp. I've been doing it since high school to fake sick and get a day off. It's the same as moving your arm to steer your car or moving your legs to walk. It's about body control and firing neurons to get your body to do certain things. If you want to define chi/qi as a non-metaphysical energy that allows your body to perform (in other words, Joules, calories, or whatever), that's fine and logical as you're just giving another name to a physiological process.

---

If chi is a term used to describe an unknown force that allows us to do certain things, that works. We are just giving a label to an observable phenomenon. However, when one starts saying that chi is this spritual energy that can be harnessed to do these things, that crosses the lines.

I mean, look at humankind's experience with the unknown in the past. Anytime they see something that they can't explain, they would blame "the gods" or some other "spiritual" being or force. That's how they used to explain lightning in Mesopotamia. When lightning struck it meant the gods were ****ed and you had to go to your local ziggurat and make a sacrifice. What a waste of time that was as lightning is the result of an atmostpheric condition (it's been years since meteorology so I can't remember the whole process). Want more proof it's not spirits? Well, nobody on this planet has been to a ziggurat for thousands of years and we haven't seen more lightning than usual.

You'll see this in pretty much all areas of spiritualism/mysticism in all parts of the world. To call chi this powerful spiritual force without truly understanding it's nature is just a self-delusion and while you're at it you might as well practice forms on a ziggurat.

My conclusion and point is that nobody who defines chi as a metaphysical element truly understands chi. It's simply another theosophy.

[ZIM]

Oh, one of *those* guys...

[Oso]

yep, but that's ok.

[ZIM]

However, when one starts saying that chi is this spritual energy that can be harnessed to do these things, that crosses the lines.

two points:
1] depends on what qi you're talking about. within chinese thought, there are divisions in some lines which divvy body qi, spiritual qi, etc. spiritual has a different function, at least initially. it can also be viewed as 'i'm doing this first, the rest will follow.' I don't completely agree with that path, but who am i to argue?

2] 'to do these things'- when you say this, i'm imagining you're talking in reference to MAs- in which case I to-diddly-do agree.

[StarBoy]

yeah, all I was really saying is that you can never really know...therefore it's not knowledge, it's just a belief, which merely an egocentric perception.

Though I had a similar debate with a friend of mine and we came to the conclusion you can never really "know" anything.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by StarBoy
[...]we came to the conclusion you can never really "know" anything.

What makes you so sure?

[Former castleva]

While this shot may keep this thread alive,I have come to the conclusion that threads/subjects like these tend to run out of hard science with fair amount of succes which results in lectures or documents on subjective philosophy.
A bit like arguing about religion.

[Souljah]

the 'hard scientific evidence' is not there because there is a lack of interest in researching into it.....IMO.
It will remain a belief based dicussion until someone can prove or disprove it.....and, SO FAR noone has done either.

[Former castleva]

the 'hard scientific evidence' is not there because there is a lack of interest in researching into it.....IMO.""
No wonder.

"It will remain a belief based dicussion until someone can prove or disprove it.....and, SO FAR noone has done either."
It will remain such.
This has been covered to a great degree imo.Makes me feel this is not high on the priorities of a serious person,but we will know who is to make that serious research for backing this up,that is the men having died at least many centuries ago.May they rest in peace.

[greendragon]

since my body mechanics are out on strike i think i'll start a chi ball fight. --------> did that one hit you Oso ?