Can Internal training make u go crazy/sick?

[Former castleva]

I thought the point we left from in the beginning was loosely medical,"grazy" being the term for folk psychiatry.
Now it does not really seem to be heading that way...and where are those superhuman feats?

[Cody]

Ego_E,
Relative absolute power can corrupt absolutely.

-- Qigong puts us into contact with our true selves (that which is hidden from others, or even from ourselves). new developments, new sensation, new possibilities, as energies are encountered.

1.------On a base level, I can think of a Partial analogy. that of puberty.
The young person is not prepared for this primal energy and associated drives. One might be instructed to mature before going out into the world, or, to abstain altogether until that magical moment known as marriage. I tend to favor the former course. In my view, what we are seeing is the development of responsibility for one's actions and their consequences, including how another person feels if they are used in the name of love, used as an object. Some don't care or don't feel; compassion for others is reserved for other situations or just for show. There is no real development then.
------As we look around us, this maturation does not go far enough in the population, imo. It's fairly elementary that there will be excesses in those who study energy within themselves when they haven't even been able to master the fundamentals of how to Not treat people like objects in the apparent norm of day-to-day existence.

2.------Imbalance of the hungers, is not identical to madness, though it might appear to be on occasion. It is generally a matter of poor choice, or a choice that is allowed to happen with not much more than a nod of the head. In other words, with the person not realizing he made a choice. Yet, it is made. How? It was made a long time ago. New opportunities point the way for manifestation of all aspects of a person.
------In kwoon, some of what is studied is the building of power to punch or kick. The building of power not to be injured easily. Does that necessarily lead to the hunger to dominate to the point of cruelty (and for that cruelty to become as a madness)? Does the building of further power via advanced internal training make for insanity? No, not without the seeds of insanity already present.
------Quigong only provides an opportunity for what we are to emerge. Even without conscious awareness of all our "automatic" martial deeds, inside we have made choices, stored subconsciously, and those are carried out. Past choices can be changed with the force of will. But, what if the will is not exercised and old patterns of choice and behavior have free reign? If these patterns are flawed or inappropriate, then it might appear as madness. It could be madness, if that is what was the case to begin with. Other aspects of one's nature might not be so easy to deal with, but awareness counts for a lot.
------The novice or more advanced practioner, who is aware of the power of choice and exercises it properly, might seem a little weird sometimes, but this is not necessarily a symptom of mental imbalance.
------Primary powers of Qigong. First, the use of personal will for personal energy development, according to what you are. Second, work with it. The choice of what we are to be, with or without this addtional education, is always ours. unless we reliquish it, but that's another tangent.

3.------"One can do things of superhuman origin." That's a loaded sentence, and well put.
------I would think of "superhuman" as meaning that which Should be beyond man, or beyond common man. (The ordinary can result from lack of opportunity, lack of potential, or lack of motivation to learn and to act in extraordinary ways.)
------Certain phenomena seem that they Should be beyond our abilities as humans because they are not of us. Yes? And yet, widely believed sources tell us we are part of a greater energy of a creator. We partake of the creator's benevolence, etc. We are at once separate from, and part of, the creator. One might not believe in a God, or in that sort of determinism, as absolute controlling factors. I don't. That's my choice. Yet, there are energies outside and inside me and I am free to investigate them, at risk. Whatever we can do is Part of the human legacy, imo. It doesn't matter if one human does it or a whole community. It is ours to do, but not ours to own, for I feel we own nothing but ourselves, a kernel. The superhuman is merely human to me. The origins are unknown. Our origins are unknown, imo. I know there is energy inside which can be mobilized and manifested and that people can fight and share that way. That's enough to work with for now, given the mixed character of humanity. As long as I don't feel used in a way that goes against my nature, I can live with it.

Cody

[cha kuen]

I have herad that chi kung will either make you a better person or you may go crazy.

[Former castleva]

I think Yang Jwing Ming puts it well in his book-"if you have never tried a fitness program before,or want an alternative to aerobics and jogging...".
While this probably is not meant to reflect the whole image of qi-gong,I think this gives a good idea of an exercise with no artificially extended strings attached.
I like to jog,I do not think it has necessarily made me a better person,neither have I gone crazy yet...at least any more crazy.This pretty much reflects my personal experiences with qg as well.
(Look for a message in this message)

[Cody]

Former castleva,
The only strings are those you bring, and those you are unprepared for.
However, without complications, and at certain levels, there is the simplicity you mention. While there are Qigong exercises which represent alternatives to other kinds of exercise, serious internal training for martial arts is another animal, driven by different intent.

"There are two categories of Qigong training: martial arts Qigong and Qigong for health, longevity, and spiritual attainment."
from Qigong For Health and Martial Arts, Chap. 1, by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. The latter is what you have referred to.
Dr. Yang seems to have immense respect for beliefs and for the energies themselves, as well as for where they overlap.

The energies are there, no matter what one's beliefs, imo. People explain energies, categorize them, and organize technique and foundation according to a combination of how they see their world and how it works. As with anything, some choose to color outside the lines in coloring book, or take information from different sources and go in a different direction.
There is room for this, and also the necessity for expert guidance for the most part, imo.

best,
Cody

[[Censored]]

In a word, yes. Thankfully, most people don't have the talent, method, or perseverance to "achieve" this.

An extremely poor diet can also make you crazy, and you don't even need any kung-fu! Try eating a cheeseburger and a Coke at every meal for a month, if you don't believe it.

[ZIM]

Huh.

I was just reading over this and was wondering if friday actually got his question answered to his satisfaction in any direct way.


Behind the words, you might see a commonality that isn't discussed as much because nobody can force it: it depends on your moral insight, what your belief structure is, or isn't.

Anyhow, you asked about 'wrong practices', so here goes some:

- I've heard of persons who meditate on 'the inner killer', thinking to activate this reprobate impulse on command, even have 'it' protect them constantly... well, you do need to be aware of it and tame it, sure, but to encourage it is against my beliefs, see? Who wants to become a sociopath? I just see it as 'shortcutting' and stupid.

- some forms of Kung Fu specialize in certain kinds of jings, say like 'shaking' jing as found in Trembling Crane. Taught wrongly, I could fully see this as tending to make a person more jumpy and anxious over time, especially if they are not taught how to smooth out that energy.
Also, other KF types would consider that kind of energy flat out wrong *for themselves* so they might view it as "crazy" I guess.

- some of the practices of Taoism might seem pretty odd to those not in the know, so that might account for some things. OTOH I've heard older forms of external alchemy involved mercury and other chemicals known to harm the brain and nervous systems. Luckily this form of qiqong is very rare now.

-Last, any mental diseases are considered qi influenced generally, in TCM

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Zim,

People who meditate on the "inner killer" are actually chicken at heart. They would be too afraid to even take the first step of doing some contact sparring or the next step in a BJJ tournie. Meditating on some imaginary killer instinct is no way to become a hunter. If one is really so brave then face a charging wart hog and take it to the ground.

People who do this chi kung meditation are push over, scrawney whimps who know everything about chinese culture and nothing about self defence.

[ZIM]

E_E:
Having read much psychological literature on sociopaths and their development, I can see what you're saying here. Thanks!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Zim,

And one must not have a false sense of security that scrawny whimps are benign, having the impression of what is a type cast "dangeroes person". There are many ways in which scrawney whimps can be dangerous. Sociopath have a differenct set of values - for example terrorist who are prepared to blow themselves up. In these days, one does not need to be big and tough physically to do immense damage.

Unfortunately people who have not experienced moderate levels of violence - such as in sparring or BJJ etc do not understand the degress of violence in order to respond to a situation accordingly. The danger in meditating on the "inner killer" may result in an all or nothing response which could risk overriding what we understand to be human values.

[ZIM]

As far as correcting goes:

I've been looking at "The Way of Qigong" by K. S. Cohen recently- in it, he mentions a taiji man who became progressively less centered.. apparently, he was connecting to and focusing on his "3rd aura".

Now thats odd. I'm guessing this guy became really sensitized, much beyond what was intended for taiji practice, and definitely he was getting away from correct practice. By the description, his taiji looked like nothing, very obviously disjointed and wandering.

So, K.S. told him to stop taiji for a year and concentrate solely on standing practice, to increase his sense of grounding. I strongly feel that that is good advice.

He also mentioned a famous buddhist teacher who was so far gone from meditating alone in a cave for 25 years that he could no longer relate in a real way. For this kind of thing, it has to be remembered that qigong is a real world thing, totally an experiential thing. Get out and smell the roses or coffee, you know?

He mentions that 'qi-gong psychotic reaction' is listed as an entry in the DSM-IV in the glossary of culture-bound syndromes.

thus: "A term describing an acute, time limited episode characterized by dissociative, paranoid, or other psychotic or nonpychotic symptoms that may occur after particiopation in the Chinese folk health-enhancing practice of qi-gong. Esp. vulnerable are individuals who become overly involved in the practice."

Last, he mentioned that research and treatment is being explored in China by Dr. Zhang Tongling, prof of psychiatry at Beijing Medical Uni. Looking her up on the Net might yield more info.

[Cody]

The DSM-IV definition quoted below covers the waterfront. Fortunate that they added "time limited" to the soup. I'll need to see what else is written in that description when I get a chance.

I will consider what is here.
Basically, it's not alluding to anything we don't already know in some fashion. except it's not clear how. "overly involved" doesn't solve the case for me.
That the baggage you carry with you to practice is going to open even if it had locks on it.
Or, that the study needs to be approached with rational and careful direction and proper foundation.
Or that what you believe to be so in your deepest heart or earliest fears, can manifest in mind surprisingly clearly, if one relaxes enough to let the underlying layers of neural activity to rise up. In this relaxation of inner boundaries of consciousness, the meditative process can expose that which it has not necessarily created.

The emphasis on "individuals who become overly involved in the practice" might indicate an innate imbalance in that sample, or, "poor" teaching which can play into the hands personal expectations, which skews the mental apparatus. any number of causes. "Overly involved" applies to an additional lack of balance. It can simply mean than the focus is incorrect and is not corrected. The questions are why and how?
Especially for health-oriented practice, one can innocently trot over to a neighborhood park and get going, without setting limits, because it's good for you.

If you're not grounded inside, not taught how to be, or your personal training is not disciplined, you stand a chance of getting lost in your own psychological mud while in an unexpected trance state. This can be on an individual basis or shared (and strengthened) by a group, with or without a leader. Sometimes, the leader can be the problem. (Yang Jwing Ming has referred to unusual symptoms occurring in practice.)

If you add MA physical training (an animal form; dissociating from incoming pain), etc., then trained disssociation from normal consciousness is part of the package, imo.
How this occurs, and what a person's expectations are, are worthy considerations.
Again, we come to inner grounding. Part of that is maintaining the same standards of what one will or will not do no matter what level of consciousness is involved. This part involves perception and judgment which go beyond the conscious.

The kernel of same self Always remains, or is supposed to. That's homework and it takes time. If that kernel is not there, whether in health-oriented work, or in MA internal training, there is a problem which could surface and must be taken seriously.
What occurs could be as simple as what happens during intoxication, when a person might do or say what they really want to, rather than holding it in (aware or unaware). Same self is operational. Only it's really expressing! To summarize, there can be underlying pathology, difficulty, or weakness which allows for the will to be fractured (not at one), or twisted (let's say by underlying rage). Qigong can be a catalyst which exposes Intent as unified or fractured or twisted within very different kinds of inner psychological situations, imo.

It is my opinion that MA internal training aims at different levels of martial practice and naturally results in realignment of practical mental/physical/spiritual relationships with self, according to level. Practice will make visible underlying strengths and weaknesses, and everything in between.

I think it is the individual mind involved, and certain beliefs (demons, devils, etc.) which can lead to graphic mental materialization, as well as quality of instruction which need scrutiny as they relate to different kinds of meditative activity.

interesting.

Cody

[ursa major]

Originally posted by friday
i've heard that internal training done incorrectly can cause internal injury as well as affecting the mental state of the practitioner. hallicunations, vomiting, nausea etc.

what are ppls' ideas on this and experience?

Returning to friday's original query and with both feet firmly planted on the ground... I can speak from experience of years Hung-Gar practicing internal training well known to this system.

I have found that internal training practiced incorrectly can most certainly leave the practitioner with any number of ailments. I know of atleast one HG practitioner who damaged his kidneys through inappropriate Iron & Thread training. I know of yet another HG practitioner who now suffers from various stomach hernias the result of improper internal training.

I have concluded many years ago that it is possible to do more damage than good with-regard-to internal training and is not a task to be taken lightly. Regarding internal training and injuries, if it (training method) does not feel natural doing it then don't. If it does not come easy do not force it. If it cannot be done while simultaneously relaxing the mind and body then stop.

I do not believe internal training can lead to altered mental states that detrimentally affect the practitioner -- unless the practitioner has an existing genetic or psychological pre-disposition towards such mental state.

UM.

[Former castleva]

The problem with such discussion IMO is that we are mixing ancient philosophical,cultural and psychological&even medical terms into actual scientific terms while having little grounding.

And altered mental state myth,conciousness etc. mixed with funky concepts of shen,yi etc. is tricky enough.

"The only strings are those you bring, and those you are unprepared for. "
This sums it up in certain manners.
The person´s own expectations and psychological make-up are a vital thing.
Blowing in the wind and feeling the energies metaphorically is not quite the same as imagining to actually blow the wind back somewhere and contain various energies,metaphorically.

As far as purely somatic issues go,I have absolutely no problem but let´s say that the next time I see my psychiatrist I´ll try to remember to ask him whether he has heard of patients with qi-gong origin.

[Cody]

The sentence starting with "Blowing in the wind...." is an interesting one. The two states described seem to move from a passive to an active approach. I read it that way.

Metaphors are for this sort of communication, poetry, beginning. I know you realize that metaphors are no substitute for reality, and that reality is not the same for everyone. What is plain as day can also be dense as a swamp. In practice, the words lose what little significance I think they had.

We operate as functional wholes. Cut down a tree and try to define treeness by a dying leaf, bark, sap circulation. You no longer have a tree. old news.
How can I say this? Do you need to prove that you are living in order to live? No. One might conceptualize attributes of living, if that is what one does, but the life is separate from the conceptualization. and, there can be disagreement, especially when consciousness is added to the soup. that might be considered a degree of funkiness?

What one begins to know from doing, the essence of any art, goes possibly beyond definition, and certainly beyond that to one who is not performing at that level. I am thinking that anything worth knowing in the deeper sense goes way beyond words and is not completely definable at our stage of development.

Cody