Kung Fu fight footage

[SanShou Guru]

Archangel

Guru,

I wanted to address this point you made early in the discussion.

"As to people making the old "NHB guys are tougher" claim I will say this; Marvin would never presume he could beat an NHB guy at their rules but any NHB guy who want to challenge Marvin at Sanda or MT rules is more than welcome to."

There is a huge flaw in your logic here. You take a Sanda competitor and place him in the Pride tournament and the rules do not limit him at all. He is ALLOWED to do everything he would be able to in Sanda.

On ther other hand though, you take a MMA fighter and place him in a Sanda competition and he is severly limited. One of his ranges is not allowed in this format. The best way to determine overall fighting ability is to chose the venue with the least amount of rules, which would be MMA.

The logic flaw is yours archangel, you could say the same thing about Mike Tyson. He could do all the things he is trained to do as a boxer in a Pride event and more but that does not mean he could win. If you took any pride fighter and put them in a ring with Tyson under boxing rules I think we know what would happen. If you don't know how to grapple you probably wont do well in a grappling event. If you mostly know grappling you would not do as well in a non grappling event. See if you can under stand my point now. Marvin fights the under the rules he has trained for and makes no claimes to be able to do well in MMA events because that is not what he trains for. The same way Shamrock would not likely say he could beat Roy Jones Jr. in a boxing match.

[Archangel]

Guru

Let me restate my point.

-MMA has LESS rules than Sanda
-Sanda uses 2 basic ranges (striking and standup grappling) when MMA uses 3
-Thus MMA is closer to reality than Sanda.
-The MMA arena would be a better competition to display overall fighting ability than Sanda

[lkfmdc]

My opinion, train Marvin Perry 6 to 8 months in ground grappling and he'd be a force in MMA as well....

[Archangel]

lkfmdc,

I completely agree with you there. If Marvin learned basic positions, how to escape and how to survive on the ground he would definately be a force; very Similar to Mo Smith.

[SanShou Guru]

You miss my point.
I know MMA has less rules, and I don't care.

I said we fight under our rules because that is what we do. I said Marvin is one of the best stand up fighters not one of the best all around fighters. He could do well in MMA if he trained that style but he does not. This is a circular argument and you are resorting to the old MMA is more real and let me say I agree with you but THAT IS NOT WHAT WE DO. What I said is if a MMA guy wants to fight our style they are welcome to try but if we fought MMA rules Marvin would not likely do as well when it went to the ground because it is a different game. See if you can see that I'm not disagreeing with you.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I would wager that Marvin could fight and win in many MMA venues without ever learning groundfighting.

Guru, - When was the last time someone completed a successful throw or takedown on Marvin in competition?

Marvin's great striking and clinch skills would make him VERY hard to takedown. If you can't take someone down, you can't groundfight...


The amazing irony of grappling (san shou is grappling - clinch work, takedowns throws) is that these athletes are much more adept at keeping the fight on their feet vs. an opponent.

The whole point of sanshou sanda is to take an opponent down to th ground. Marvin is a champion at negating this tactic and using his strikes to win.

[lkfmdc]

San Shou/San Da is literally MMA standing, in that we hit and grapple, including knees now In something like UFC or Pride, ie fulll MMA we would benefit because we are hard to take down and we do know how to hit someone trying to take us down. But you always have to be prepared for the "what ifs" and if you end up on the ground, you need to train for that also

I dont' think anyone here is really disagreeing

[SanShou Guru]

Marvin has been taken down twice in his last 10 San Shou matches I believe. In the last four months in Class he has been taken down maybe 5 times. When someone takes him down we all run around cheering and giving high fives. The last time someone caught his kick and took him down was Rudi Ott in 1999, right leg round kick catch. You have to remember though we have 3 seconds to throw someone and we try to stay on our feet. Give me 25 seconds and go down with him and I could get him down much more often. But yes Marvin is virtually impossible to thrown in San Shou/Sanda Rules. I doubt even Cung could throw him more than once or twice in a 5 round fight. The fact that Marvin is 230 lbs. now does not help either.

[CD Lee]

Ok. I will say it. MMA is still full of sub-par fighters. The most talented fighters on the planet are western boxers. The reason they are boxers and not MMA or Karate guys, is one thing and one thing only. MONEY. The best fighters in the world that have the best talent, go to where the money is. Mike would take peoples heads off in the UFC if he learned to fight that way. It is not the style, it is the man behind the style.

If Mike Tyson, or Roy Jones Jr. took up MMA to strictly fight Pride style matches, you would see a new breed of fighter in those venues. Unfortunately, football has taken away many great would-be fighters, as well as basketball. Tennis is finally getting world class style atheletes, but it is due to the money available now.

Oh yeah...I forgot,

Shalolin MMA dude - I guess there is some footage of Karate beating a street punk. You were wrong.
Knife Fighter and you do not completley agree that MMA is a style. You were wrong there too.

You are fooling yourself if you think MMA is a style. Keep saying it, the sun is blue, the sun is blue, the sun is blue...

MMA is more like a Subway sandwich, you look, you pick what you want, and build your own sandwich. Yeah I know turkey is popular these days, but you don't have to do turkey, you can still get ham. Some dudes still do a little pepperoni with a dash of oregano...think I'll go eat now.

[Archangel]

SanShou Guru

"I said Marvin is one of the best stand up fighters not one of the best all around fighters"

Very much agreed; I guess my point of contention was when you were stating that MMA fighters should go to Sanda competitions, where there are more rules. Other than that, we do agree.


lkfmdc

" San Shou/San Da is literally MMA standing, in that we hit and grapple, including knees now "

I'm not versed in Sanda rules but I do see some major differences. In Sanda you don't have to account for standing submissions. Also, like Guru said in MMA you have unlimited time to work for a takedown.

I don't believe that this would portray a major road block for Marvin but it's definately something he'd need to address. The submission and ground game are a completely different animal.

[norther practitioner]

The fact that Marvin is 230 lbs. now does not help either.

Wow, didn't know he was that big. I've loved watching him fight the few times I have.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
No it won't... Distance running will DECREASE sprinting performance.

Uggh! For crying out loud. Of course, if one is already a capable sprinter, distance running will decrease sprinting performance. I am contrasting distance running with no training, or with training that has little bearing on running performance in general.

If a person is not a runner AT ALL, and begins running 5-10 miles a day, that person will become a faster sprinter than they were before they started training. This is because they are making the transition from non-runner to runner.

Yes, we all know that distance running is not the way to optimally train for sprinting. I am only saying that it will transition a person from non-runner to runner. Such training will make a person a stronger runner than lack of training would. Such training will make a person a stronger sprinter than lack of training would.

I am not saying that distance running will improve a runner's sprint performance, but it will improve a non-runner's sprint performance by training them as a runner, but with some definite limitations. The limitations of the efficacy of distance running to improve sprint performance IS my point.

I will make it very simple. OK, we go pick a guy up off the couch (no previous training), and we clock him for 100 yards. Not too good. So, we get him running until he can run 5 miles a day. We take him back out and clock him. Hey look, his sprint is not too bad now (when compared to his first time).

I am not talking about taking an already competent sprinter and prescribing distance training to improve his sprint performance. As I have stated (repeatedly) this is not how you would train for optimal sprint performance.

Why are you hung up on this point? It is still only a loose analogy to pertain to the original discussion.

This is the very reason I created my new tagline. (see below)

-B

[Archangel]

"Ok. I will say it. MMA is still full of sub-par fighters"

Oh come on, every sport has sub par performers; boxing has plenty of them as well. MMA also has it's share of world class and olympic athlethes.

"The most talented fighters on the planet are western boxers"

What kind of fighting are you talking about. If your talking about punching or maybe even striking in general I will give you that. However "fighting" is so much more than striking. Boxers like Tyson and Jones have great attributes, but tell me do you think that they could compete against say Baumgartner, Angle or Kevin Jackson on the mat? Do you think that they could hang with Mike Swain in a Judoka competition. Their attributes are specialized for striking, grappling is a different animal with often a complentary set of attributes attached to it.

I do see what you are saying though, the best athletes will go to where the money is. In the case of MMA, you have fighters with the best overall skill set but not neccarilly the best attributes for fighting.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CD Lee
Ok. I will say it. MMA is still full of sub-par fighters. The most talented fighters on the planet are western boxers.


that's an apples and oranges comparison. mma would be sub par in boxing because they don't box. it's part of their training in some cases, but boxers they are not. On the same hand, boxers who aren't training for mma wouldn't fair to well in mma. That's got nothing to do with their fighting talent. You can't say mike tyson is more talented than bj penn and also a better fighter. they are two d@mn good fighters who took different paths. You can't just assume "penn doesn't box because he's a sub par fighter" or "Tyson boxes because he's an awesome fighter and boxing is where the awesome fighters get money." There are PLENTY of sub par boxers out there too.

[CD Lee]

Archangel - You know...I expected more flaming than that...

Ok. Here is the deal. No, Tyson would not survive on the mat with any current grappler or half good grapplers. My point is really that the guys that have the most awesome physical skills for speed, power, accuracy, and toughness are in boxing. If these same guys were trained to fight in a Pride format, they would completely dominate the current group of guys.

Every single thing, when you talk about fighting, is relative. There are no absolutes. If Tyson is in a bar, and gets in a quick left hook on Jackson, fight will be over in seconds. If Jackson gets Tyson's leg, maybe it goes down, and Tyson bites him, I mean, loses. Who is the better fighter? The real question is who might be more dangerous?

If you do see a fighter in the MMA group that has world class striking skills, they will either have a major glaring weakness(weak chin, no defense), or they will be well past thier fighting peak. Guys that are close to world class striking ability are extreemly rare. Vitor is the closest I have seen, and you see how impressive he looks against almost anybody in a striking situation. Of course, he has glaring weaknesses as well that can be easily exploited in a boxing ring.

But just remember, Roy just pulled down 10 million. Foreman is so rich now, it is beyond ridiculous. Moseley, Trinidad, Ray Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Frazier, on and on, these guys are muti-millionares when they strap on the gloves.

Boxing is also much more dangerous than MMA matches due to the nature of the rules and the caliber of the skill set with which these guys subject themselves. Remember in the UFC, if you can get a guy down from strikes, it is all but over within seconds. In boxing, they can knock a guy senseless, to the mat, 10 seconds, then let them recover, wipe the gloves, and whamo, they get to get hit even more, and harder, and with less reaction ability. Then if they happen to make it to the corner, they get to recover so they can come out fresh, and take even more damage to the brain. It is really quite unnatural. That is why so many boxers die in the ring.