OT- Is torture ever justified in coercing information from suspects?

[DragonzRage]

For that al qaeda ******* we caught, you better believe that torture is justified! The information he can offer us will possibly prevent the mass murder of even more innocent civilians. It is information that we NEED to get, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

On a personal note, I feel that if it was up to me I would have him castrated with a rusty fork, stick needles in his eyes, slowly cut his fingers off one by one, and then throw him in a prison cell with a big ****sexual inmate who will sodomize him repeatedly for the rest of his natural life. I hope the special forces guys who caught him gave him a thorough a$$ kicking before they turned him in. That man is a piece of human trash!

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
On a personal note, I feel that if it was up to me I would have him castrated with a rusty fork, stick needles in his eyes, slowly cut his fingers off one by one, and then throw him in a prison cell with a big ****sexual inmate who will sodomize him repeatedly for the rest of his natural life.

Problem her is the phrase "I would have him castrated ...".
Don't make statements like that unless you are willing to do it yourself.

Talk is cheap, many People talk but would never do as they say it should happen.
Getting other People to do those things only shows cowardice.

This normally happens when people are emotionally involved and apply double standards.
Why "double standards" because if someone else decided to do it to theirs it would be cruel and wrong.

Example:
Americans prisoners during Vietnam, WW II in Japanese camps, etc.

Just one of the reason why the geneva convention, etc were put into place after WW II.

[Edit]
Nevermind that you will sink to the same level as other countries that are condemned by the US, UN and other countries.

Just something to ponder.

[@PLUGO]

Torture LITE anyone?

personally I'll be waiting for Diet Torturetm

hitting the states next summer...

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
Interesting that you bring this term up.
If you look at what they do, it is torture.
Not physical, but mental.
Torture is torture no matter how its done.

Hmm. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. I happen to have been a professional Russian interrogator in the US Army toward the end of the Cold War. Interrogation subjects are treated quite well. You have seen too many movies.

What you are referring to is called "coercion", and it is expressly forbidden in the Geneva conventions and military doctrine. Truth be told, the best thing that can happen to a foreign soldier is to be taken by the US military as a POW. This is by design. We want enemy soldiers to know how easy and pleasant it is to surrender to us.

-B

[DragonzRage]

"Problem her is the phrase "I would have him castrated ...".
Don't make statements like that unless you are willing to do it yourself."

-How do you know that I'm not? Put the knife in my hand and I'll be more than happy to.

"Talk is cheap, many People talk but would never do as they say it should happen. Getting other People to do those things only shows cowardice."

-How do you know that I'm among those people? Perhaps you're not the type of person to back up your views with action. You should speak for yourself and not make presumptions about others. Talk may be cheap, but your talk is just as cheap as mine. The fact that you're speaking from an opposite point of view makes no difference. Perhaps if you lost a loved one in the Trade Towers you'd feel differently.

"Why "double standards" because if someone else decided to do it to theirs it would be cruel and wrong. Example:
Americans prisoners during Vietnam, WW II in Japanese camps, etc."

-If Viet Cong captured and tortured the American officer responsible for the My Lai massacre or another similar atrocity, I would understand why they did it and I would not condemn them for it. As for the Japanese, let's not forget that they were the ones who attacked us. They also raped and slaughtered indiscriminately through Asia on scales of savagery that made the Nazis seem tame. View some photos of what happened in Nanking before you start empathizing with WWII Japanese military practices.

"Nevermind that you will sink to the same level as other countries that are condemned by the US, UN and other countries."

-I never condemned any country. I'm not George Bush. Did I say that I felt attacking Iraq is justified? White America was founded upon the systematic genocide of the Native American people and the enslavement and disenfranchisement of other minorities. Great Britain has robbed and subjugated many people and nations in the past. The U.S. and Great Britain are in no moral position to condemn other countries.

You can't judge an entire nation, but you can judge the individual. I simply feel that any individual who willingly plans or executes the mass slaughter of innocent people deserves to be put through the a similar amount of pain and agony that he so senselessly caused. I don't care what country or religion he is from. Perhaps we have a philosophical difference on that point. But whatever...you have the right to feel the way you do as i have the right to feel the way I do.

[Serpent]

America has been torturing the rest of the planet for quite a while now, simply by being there. Can we get the UN to do something about them now, seeing as they're breaking things like the Geneva Convention by continually torturing the rest of the world?

[Laughing Cow]

Dragonzrage.

Not a problem.

Glad that you are so sure that you can hurt and torture an individual in cold blood.

I don't know if I could do it, and hope I will never have to find out.


I never sympathise with the japanese military or the nazis.

Just used them as an example.

Cheers.

[Serpent]

That's actually an interesting point.

How many of you think you could actually torture someone for information?

Don't jump to answer, just on an intellectual level. Stop and think about it, imagine physically mutilating someone, causing them extreme pain. Could you really do it?

[DragonzRage]

I would by no means enjoy doing something like that, and I guess (to be honest) I can't say for sure that if placed in the position I'd have the stomach to follow through. But in the case of this madman, I definitely feel that it is justified. I guess that in answer to your question, I would HOPE that I'd have the strength to follow through if it was required of me. I am not experienced in interrogation or systematic torture so I can't say for sure that I have the ability to do such things without hesitation. I suppose that it'd be easier to deal with if I had some training first.

[respectmankind]

You should never sacrafice your morals to get ahead. A small scale example of this could be many different things, i tenm dto think of movies, liek dark blue, training day, although less that movie. 24 (tv show) had some good stuff on that aawhile back

[dwid]

First off, I think we need to define our terms with regard to torture. The media that I've seen cover this story so far has included things like sleep and sensory deprivation under the umbrella of torture. I think this is incorrect. Sleep deprivation is relatively harmless in the long run and has been a staple of police interrogation for years.

However, it's an increasingly well-documented fact that confessions coerced in such ways are not necessarily accurate. As was stated earlier, if you put someone under sufficient stress, they will cop to anything.

That said, this is a somewhat unique case in which the subject's guilt is not in question, but rather what is sought is information. The trouble is, the subject can hold out for a while and then the interrogators may believe anything he says. Truthfully, without corroboration, I can't see how anything they get from this guy is at all reliable. He is most likely familiar with our tactics, and is probably smart enough to play to his interrogators.

[Ford Prefect]

With that type of thinking wouldn't it also be better just to nuke any Country that the US has disputes with??

Nope. Will that save innocent lives? Negative. Will coercing information from an admitted terrorist who has publicaly acknowledged his role in the slaughter of over 3,000 innocent, non-military personel? Yes. It's not like he is a "supsected" terrorist. He is one of the most well-known and well-organized terrorists in the world. EVERY country's intelligence community does not dispute this fact one bit.

Do you think the moral high-ground is worth it if another 3,000 people die in a terrorist attack that could have been stopped with information this man holds? Will you tell those innocent victim's families, that their son, mother, father, wife, etc had to die because interrogating a known murdered and terrorist would be "wrong"? Who knows? It may be your parents, children, or spouse that dies because of it. It might even be you.

Truth be told, the best thing that can happen to a foreign soldier is to be taken by the US military as a POW. This is by design. We want enemy soldiers to know how easy and pleasant it is to surrender to us.

Which is why the US is circumventing this policy on technicalities. I guess lawyers are good for something.

Can we get the UN to do something about them now, seeing as they're breaking things like the Geneva Convention by continually torturing the rest of the world?

Haha! The US is the UN. They fund it. If the UN needs to use force, who spearheads the campaign? The UN has shown there absolute incompatency when it comes to force. They are a great peace-keeping force and good for handling the aftermath of conflict, but history shows they are useless in the conflict itself. BTW, please provide a specific example of the US torturing the "rest of the world". Thanks.

[Ford Prefect]

Dwid,

However, it's an increasingly well-documented fact that confessions coerced in such ways are not necessarily accurate.

Interrogators can learn almost as much from a lie as they can from the truth. If Mr Casey was actively involved in interrogation or the intelligence stemming from interrogation, he could verify this.

[davethedragon]

i agree with dwid

sleep deprivation is not a severe form of torture

on english tv at the moment there is a program where normal civilians were shipped off to borneo to see if they could endure a shortened easier version of the S.A.S training they made them march for a couple of days on the jungle and stand watch all night and then did a mock capture interrogation, this involved depriving them of sleep and making them stand in stress positions for prolonged lengths of time.

they were free to leave at any time but only one of them dropped out.

in an ideal world torture wouldnt be necessary and pain imposed on ano5ther human being is never right.

but the world we live in is far from ideal and getting worse by the day.

if it saves lives in the long run then i support it.

[Radhnoti]

I think we need a specific definition of torture, as some here seem to feel that sleep deprivation is torture.

I would disagree with my government beating/cutting info out of someone, as it would "bring you down to their level".