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Thread: OT- Is torture ever justified in coercing information from suspects?

  1. #31
    Originally posted by Ford Prefect
    Haha! The US is the UN. They fund it. If the UN needs to use force, who spearheads the campaign? The UN has shown there absolute incompatency when it comes to force. They are a great peace-keeping force and good for handling the aftermath of conflict, but history shows they are useless in the conflict itself. BTW, please provide a specific example of the US torturing the "rest of the world". Thanks.
    Need I say any more?
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
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  2. #32
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    Dragonzrage

    Let me tell you a story of how my attitudes towards things like this changed a few years ago. When I was in my teens and early 20's I was convinced that I could kill a person if I had to - whether it was self defence, revenge, or in the service of my country.

    One day I attended a family get together. The usual feast was planned and as is fairly usual in my family crabs were on the menu in large amounts. Mum had bought 3 large, live crabs and asked me to kill them and cut them up for cooking.

    Being the hard man that I was, I said "No problems", grabbed the knife and a crab and prepared to do the deed. As I was about to plunge the knife in, the crab started scrabbling and struggling and I hesitated and could almost sense its fear. I couldn't do it!

    So me, the hard man who could take a human life if I had to didn't have the heart to take the life of a crab. I realised then that I had been deluding myself about being able to kill a person. I eventually killed the crab anyway, because it had to be done but it was a very hard thing for me to do.

    So, don't be so sure that you could torture or kill someone you perceive to be an enemy. Once you look them in the eye and are faced with doing the deed, I am sure you will sotp and think twice as well.
    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
    Behold, I see my father and mother.
    I see all my dead relatives seated.
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  3. #33
    Excellent post, Joe!
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
    ---------------------------------------------
    but what if the man of steel hasta fight another man of steel only that man of steel knows kung fu? - Kristoffer
    ---------------------------------------------
    How do you think monks/strippers got started before the internet? - Gene Ching
    ---------------------------------------------
    Find your peace in practice. - Gene Ching

  4. #34
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    Joe.

    Great Post.

    Coming from a Family of Hunters I can kill an animal, preferably in the quickest and most painless method.

    All the Animals we killed and caught were for the sole purpose of being eaten.
    This goes as far as raising hatch rabbits and killing them after a few months of play, after that we skinned them, etc.

    A good hunter will always try to minimise the pain and suffering of it's prey, and deliberaely hurting an animal or letting it suffer goes against our beliefs.
    Plus, we try to set us on as equal footing as possible when hunting.

    I have seen too many animals that were maimed or similar due to bad hunting skills.
    Last edited by Laughing Cow; 03-05-2003 at 05:40 PM.
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  5. #35
    I've only ever "hunted" fish. I think that if I had to catch and kill and prepare my own meat that I'd eat a lot less meat. I might become a fishivore pretty dayum quickly!
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
    ---------------------------------------------
    but what if the man of steel hasta fight another man of steel only that man of steel knows kung fu? - Kristoffer
    ---------------------------------------------
    How do you think monks/strippers got started before the internet? - Gene Ching
    ---------------------------------------------
    Find your peace in practice. - Gene Ching

  6. #36
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    Yeah, I know I am a wuss. I figured that a lot of the posters, particularly the US posters, have probably done some hunting in their lives so are cool with killing animals, but my point wasn't about the killing as such, but more what went through my mind.

    I did try to make it as quick as possible, and the way Mum had shown me to kill crabs is supposed to be the quickest way anyway. Still made me realise that it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. And killing a human would be several orders of magnitude harder.
    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
    Behold, I see my father and mother.
    I see all my dead relatives seated.
    I see my master seated in Paradise and Paradise is beautiful and green; with him are men and boy servants.
    He calls me. Take me to him.

  7. #37
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    Originally posted by Serpent
    I've only ever "hunted" fish. I think that if I had to catch and kill and prepare my own meat that I'd eat a lot less meat. I might become a fishivore pretty dayum quickly!
    It taught me to appreciate and respect life in any form.


    Agreed, not many people these days could do it, same way they could not club a baby seal over the head to get their fur-coat.
    Witty signature under construction.

  8. Thumbs up

    Iīm not so confident with crabs but I think fish is low on frontal cortex which means they are,theoretically,unable to sense pain.

    It has been seen that sleep deprivation is highly harmful in long run (OK,I do not know how long torture goes and how to define) an example of that is a poor dog that eventually passes away without sleep.
    The sunsetīs setting down.Lay me on the forest floor.

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  9. #39
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    Here' one for you Serpie!

    Just to play the Devil's Advocate " another scenario". Say one of your children or wife has been kidnapped.[list=1][/list=1] You caught the SOB one day laterYou can't trust the police for competent help.You've been informed by the SOB that she/they cannot survive an indefinite amount of time without help from someone elseHe's also not saying anything else[list=a][/list=a] Balls in your court now what do you do??
    "It is essential to lose the mind"

  10. #40
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    Uncle.

    Playing the "what if" game with unlikely scenarios never won an argument.


    Actually "What if" games for the most part are a waste of time, as each real happening will be different and thus you cannot say "I would do X, Y or X."

    Cheers.
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  11. #41
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    Very true

    But playing in absolutes is not entirely truthful either! The same as saying we could NEVER kill any one, everyone has it in him under the right or wrong circumstances ,sorry human nature.
    "It is essential to lose the mind"

  12. #42
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    Re: Very true

    Originally posted by uncle
    But playing in absolutes is not entirely truthful either! The same as saying we could NEVER kill any one, everyone has it in him under the right or wrong circumstances ,sorry human nature.
    Agreed, but you also need to remember that torturing and capital punishments need to be done cold-blooded.

    And here is where the difference comes in, it is easy to do while enraged or in another extreme mental frame but a lot more difficult when clear-minded and calm.

    Actually proper torture is an art and involves a lot more than inflicting random pain.

    Stumblefist:

    Not sure what you are trying to say in your post.

    This Thread is about torture in general, not specific about if and how the Iraqi's did torture.
    And if we are justified to use the same methods as others do.

    The person being tortured cares little if his torture is justified by high moral ground or not.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Laughing Cow; 03-06-2003 at 02:23 PM.
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  13. #43
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    My point was not whether or not I could do it. It was addressed to those who think that they could. Now maybe the could go ahead and torture another human being. Or maybe they would be like me and find that it is not quite so easy to do as you originally thought.
    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
    Behold, I see my father and mother.
    I see all my dead relatives seated.
    I see my master seated in Paradise and Paradise is beautiful and green; with him are men and boy servants.
    He calls me. Take me to him.

  14. #44

    Re: Here' one for you Serpie!

    Originally posted by uncle
    Just to play the Devil's Advocate " another scenario". Say one of your children or wife has been kidnapped.[list=1][/list=1] You caught the SOB one day laterYou can't trust the police for competent help.You've been informed by the SOB that she/they cannot survive an indefinite amount of time without help from someone elseHe's also not saying anything else[list=a][/list=a] Balls in your court now what do you do??
    Sorry Uncle, I'm not entirely sure of the situation you're hypothesising here. Could you be a little clearer?

    Is it that my wife, for example, is kidnapped. I've caught the kidnapper, but my wife is still held somewhere and in danger. The kidnapper isn't talking and the police are no help.

    What would I do to get the kidnapper to tell me where my wife is.

    Is that what you're asking?
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
    ---------------------------------------------
    but what if the man of steel hasta fight another man of steel only that man of steel knows kung fu? - Kristoffer
    ---------------------------------------------
    How do you think monks/strippers got started before the internet? - Gene Ching
    ---------------------------------------------
    Find your peace in practice. - Gene Ching

  15. #45
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    Re: Bacon without Eggs?

    Originally posted by Stumblefist

    Hahahaha
    I would say the thread is about what people want to say not what YOU want them to say.
    Just trying to prevent further Thread drift.


    So take a look at dos and happens and you'll know more about whys and woulds and coulds and justifications.

    You all talking so ethereally, get a closer grounding look at what happened and you can think more clearly if you can pull out someone's fingernails and think about justication in terms of numbers of dead babies or mass graves.
    And here exactly lies the problem with so many arguments on KFO.

    People take ONE example and stress it to death to jsutify their points.

    Torture been around for thousands of Years, and most prolly will be around for a long time still.

    Go to the top of the page and reread the Thread topic.

    OT- Is torture ever justified in coercing information from suspects?

    This thread is about torturing people (Captured prisoners) for information and if the practice is justified.

    Sorry, I don't see much relevance in the links you posted to the topic.
    But rather see you trying to swing the discussion into another anti-Iraq\pro-US debate.

    Cheers.
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