OT- Is torture ever justified in coercing information from suspects?

[Laughing Cow]

Stumblefist.

Also pls,don't justify your point as follows:

"They have done bad and horrible things so we are entitled to do bad things in the name of justice and goodwill.
Because our intentions are better than theirs were."

Which we have heard way too much in recent times. And seen too many times enacted in the Israel/Palestine conflict., etc.

BTW, this doesn't mean that I am pro-Iraq or approve of what they did.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

Stumblefist.

Once again slowly for you so that even you can understand it.

Torture for pleasure as the Iraqi's did and torturing a prisoner for information are different things.

The Iraqi's used a rule of TERROR not TORTURE. I doubt that the Infants had any vital information to impart.

I read "Uhuru" by Robert Ruark when I was still a teen, that was years before the Iraqi incident. And many similar Books.

We don't need the latest gory stuff from Iraq too understand torture and terror.
Your posts will skew Opinions as they play on the current anti-Iraq sentiment.

Again I REPEAT the topic is about torturing prisoners for Information.
If you can't seperate an issue like this from currrent events I feel sorry for you.

Have fun.

[uncle]

The scenario I put forth was simply a tool showing that someone's preferences could be changed from a different perspective but I see your point about whether it makes it right or wrong in the first place[list=a][/list=a] Yes serpent that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't know about you , but if it was me he would be looking at a whole new sensoreal reality, and then not much else after that.[list=a][/list=a] Laughing cow, not to hijack the thead but Stumble brings another point up indirectly. Just how much change in public opinion is encouraged by spin doctors" media,TV,newsgroups", anyone who doesn't think that they have an impact should look a little closer.When we lost the Viet Nam war it was because the politicians ended up running it instead of the generals, I just think that so far the opposite is true here. Scary thought that.[list=a][/list=a] truth and honor, Bob

[Laughing Cow]

uncle.

I see what stumblefist is trying to say, but am worried that it will head the wrong way.
Right now emotions are high and people will capitalise on it.
Problem is at what cost?

When would torture be justified and when not?

At the moment the USA has a limit of own soldiers killed during a peace keeping mission before they pull their troops out.

Will there be something similar when someone sez 299 people killed = no torture, 300 killed = torture.
At what stage do morals, ethic values and international conventions do kick in?

As was mentioned once you go down the road there is NO turning back or making compromises, it is a one-way road. Same with human rights or war crimes, once they are commited there is no undoing or justfying them.

Torture is either 100% ok or not.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Stumblefist

The IRAQIS ALSO torture to extract information.

So do many other countries, or do you think the Israelis invite their palestinian prisoners for a Cuppa, Biscuits, comfy chair and threaten them with the soft cushion to ease their backs.


So, many people vote YES and the USA will join the other nations that torture people for information.
Actually we have no clear data stating that the USA does or doesn't do so at the moment.

BTW, I don't need convincing on anything, my stand is strictly anti-torture and will remain so.
Maybe I saw too much WW II and similar footage as a child.

Just want people to look at the issue with open eyes and minds.

Cheers.

P.S.: I am also anti-capital punishment.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Stumblefist
In the tradition of free America i stand by others being free to express their opinions and do not pretend opinions i don't like are off-topic.

Not being Ammerican I don't follow the US tradition, rules or conventions.


Back home everybody is FREE to voice their Opinion too, they are also FREE to be popped on the nose if I or others dis-agree with them.


The same way they are FREE not to listen to someones opinion.

You see back home, we have a consitution that protects "Freedom of Speech" the same Constitution OTOH does NOT protect you from the repercussions arising from exercising that freedom.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Stumblefist
But it's plain to see every argument with you becomes a pro and con specific country argument.

Only when talking with other pure pro/con people.

Well at least you came out of the closet with the reasons why you were trying to silence me.

Good one, how do I do that?

Switch your PC off from over here.
Get a life.

Anti-war and anti-torture protesters don't have to worry because others will do what is necessary (if it is necessary) to help them survive.
We must fight to preserve all our voices.

Yadda, Yadda. Got another record that one sounds broken already.
If you can't come up with a new reply save it, we heard them all.

I for one am not interested in your re-hashed propaganda.

Seeya.

[uncle]

LC, truly I do see your point. just how long do you have to torture to aquire information before your gleefuly doing it just because your bored or you just kindalike it. Greatfully I'm not in the military and wouldn't have to come across those decisions.From time immemorial there have been certain aspects of warfare that were constants, namely assasination, torture,deception, and god only knows what else. just the way it is and always has been as long as there are conflicts in the world.[list=a][/list=a] Stumble, don't get me wrong I am pro American big time but since the 60's and 70's I question authority at every turn. This whole BS deal is because the Shrub's Daddy didn't kill the dirty SOB the last time we were there.[list=a][/list=a] For the record I am pro death penalty it really pi$$es me off that I have to support some babie killin' A' hole in prison ,gimme the switch I'd throw it.[list=a][/list=a] And yea we got the same nose punchin' thing here too. [list=a][/list=a] Truth and Honor, Bob B.

[Laughing Cow]

One problem I see with the current US administration is that they appear to be trying to classify shades of grey colours as either black or white.


Unfortunately neither black nor white are colours.

[uncle]

Thats why I live in the new wild west "alaska" lot of know'd up noses up here as for drive by's, we like to call long distance 50cal style or up close and real personal!!![list=a][/list=a] nite all.. Bob B

[Laughing Cow]

stumblefist.

Keep ranting it shows more and more of your true character.

I guess now we know where you got the "stumble" in your Id from.

Once you got a life and a grip on reality come back.

Once you can see shades of grey would be preferable.

I guess the USA needs mindless drones like you too.
BTW, unless you are at the front fighting the war you are ALSO letting other people fight your fight for you.
Guess that makes you as bad as me.


Anti-one thing does NOT equal being anti-everything YOU value.
But I guess narrow-minded people like you will never get it.
Back home we got a saying about people like you:

"So narrow-minded they use BOTH eyes to peep through a key-hole."

[EDIT]
I feel that people like you and some other posters on here if they lived in 1930's Germanies would be prime-candidates & volunteers for the SS or Gestapo, or the Kamikaze squads during Ww II.
[/EDIT]

Have fun on my ignore list, you are in good Company.

[Laughing Cow]

US breaches DMZ.

US rethinks German, Korean bases.

[GeneChing]

Decade+ thread necromancy.

Amnesty International says China trades in 'tools of torture'



A report released yesterday from Amnesty International finds that there is a growing number of Chinese companies involved in the manufacture and trade of "tools of torture" to nations with poor human rights records.

Amnesty discovered 130 of these companies, way up from just 28 a decade ago. The "tools of torture" could more politely be called police weapons and include instruments like electric shock batons, electric stun guns, and spiked metal batons. China is the only country known to produce spiked batons.

The products are sold to nations like Nepal, Cambodia, Egypt, Ghana, Senegal, and Madagascar; and the problem then becomes how police in these states use their new toys.

The report said:

While some of the exports are no doubt used in legitimate law enforcement operations, China has also exported equipment that has inhumane effects, or poses a substantial risk of fueling human rights violations by foreign law enforcement agencies

Meanwhile, 74 percent of Chinese are just fine with all this.




by Alex Linder
[Images via Amnesty International]

[bawang]

the strong do as they will, the weak accept as they must.

[Kellen Bassette]

We prefer our torture tools proudly made in the USA.