Belt Systems

[Jotun]

again thanks to those who read and/or responded to my last thread about knees

belt systems have probably been over discussed here, whether they are good or bad whatever. however for those who train in styles that incorporates a belting system, i am curious to know what a student must know to achieve the next level. how many belts are there? how many approximate hours did one need to pass a test? how many forms/katas/ and techniques were needed?

thanks for the replies

[SevenStar]

In bjj, it's based on your improvement, for lack of a better way to say it right now. For instance, a white belt wouldn't even be considered for a blue until he can hang with and go head up with the blue belts. If that takes you two years, then guess what? you will get it in two years when that's been accomplished. I like this method, as it ensures that you actually know how to apply what you are learning.

In judo, it's based on several things - it varies from state to state I believe, but the guidelines are likely about the same. There's a point system - you get points for going to class, you get points for competing - when competing, you get more points if you beat someone of a higher rank than you. Also, you have certain techniques that are required knowledge for certain belt levels. If you've fulfilled all of the requirements and your instructor feels you deserve it, you may test. The above rules apply up through brown belt. to get your black belt, you have to test in front of the state judo board, and they have to deem you as deserving of a black belt. I like this method also, but like the way we do it in bjj better.


When I was in longfist, it was like it was when I was in karate. There are set techniques/principles/forms that you must know, and as you progress, you have to demonstrate your competency at applying them. I like this method least of the three mentioned.

[Surferdude]

Well in my dojo theres only white belts and black belts....
Well only colors in the kiddy class I have to know all of my kata(forms) and kihon(basics) to become a black belt...in kihon you have to know all of the stances, punches, strikes and, kicks.

[NorthernMantis]

In my oppinion belts should remain where they originated- with the Japanese styles and not in Chinese ones.

I got nothing againt's Japanese martial arts but this is how I feel. The reason why belt rankings bother me is that :

1)In the History of China all people wore sashes wether they knew martial arts or not. It was just clothing people! To hold up your pants! Like todays fashion sashes came in all different colors and in different adornments. If some old man was wearing a yellow sash it didn't mean that he just started martial arts. The man just owre it because he thought it looked good.

2)People think that color of raqnking=skill which is so wrong.

Who cares what belt color you are. Can you use your style? Why do people say where you are at? How do you know where you are at? Why would it matter? There is no such things. We are all learning always it's non stop. Does anyone know how long it would take to learn everything in my style let alone master it? It's ludicrous.

[Laughing Cow]

Jotun.

Thee is NO standardised Belt ranking system.
It started off with only 2 Belts 100+ yrs ago and went ballistic from there.

Each style and often school will assign their own belt ranks as they see fit.
Thus the colour of your belt can only be taken in regard with other students at your school.

A black belt in one style might be a brown, blue or purple in another.

Most of the times I have seen them tied to which and how many techniques you can perform and understand.
Many of the JMA test requirements also include essays and similar.

Cheers.

[Sho]

My personal opinion on this would be, that even though, sashes don't necessarily show the actual skill of a practitioner, it sets a hierarchy within the school. It becomes very handy especially when the school's practitioner count increases, because then it becomes very difficult to be aware of everyone's progress. Therefore, a ranking system can serve as a good way to keep track of the technique competency of individual students. The instructor doesn't necessarily need to ask students whether they already know the technique or not. The instructor can also divide students into different groups so that they can practice techniques that suit their sash ranks. So, I believe sash ranks are beneficial in maintaining a hierarchial structure that is based on students' theoretical knowledge, but not in measuring one's actual fighting skills.

[Oso]

It's up to the instructor to keep the whole thing in check and not blown out of proportion. I agree w/ Sho's commentary. I tell my adult students that it is mostly a method to arrange the curriculum. However, in a kids class it helps to create tangible goals. I know there are people out there that don't think teaching kids is worthwhile but think about all the stories you hear about the old masters being taught in family since they were very young. Where else are the new masters going to come from but the very young of today. If it takes the excitement of a new colored belt to keep a kid training then I don't feel that it is selling out at all. As the kids get older you just have to make sure that they grow to understand that it's not about the belt.

[bystander]

traditional chinese kung fu is called traditional for a reason, that is they follow tradition, no belts, only sifu wears a red sash

[Kinjit]

BJJ's ranking system is great.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by bystander
traditional chinese kung fu is called traditional for a reason, that is they follow tradition, no belts, only sifu wears a red sash

My Sifu doesn't even use a red sash.

He is dressed like the students tracksuit & T-shirt.

[Serpent]

BJJ (ranking) is superior.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by bystander
traditional chinese kung fu is called traditional for a reason, that is they follow tradition, no belts, only sifu wears a red sash

There is no fixed rule. Don't post as if you're posting the law for all CMA.

Some traditional styles have adopted ranking systems for various reasons, others have no ranking sytem at all. Even within a single style, different schools, especially in different countries, can use different systems. In the long run, as long as they're teaching the true system, who cares how they choose to denote it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
In my oppinion belts should remain where they originated- with the Japanese styles and not in Chinese ones.

I got nothing againt's Japanese martial arts but this is how I feel. The reason why belt rankings bother me is that :

1)In the History of China all people wore sashes wether they knew martial arts or not. It was just clothing people! To hold up your pants! Like todays fashion sashes came in all different colors and in different adornments. If some old man was wearing a yellow sash it didn't mean that he just started martial arts. The man just owre it because he thought it looked good.

Remember, this isn't ancient China, it's modern *insert country here* People like to feel that they have accomplished something. Who cares if it's a belt system that gives them that?



2)People think that color of raqnking=skill which is so wrong.

Who cares what belt color you are. Can you use your style?

It doesn't have to be wrong - blame that on the instructor

Why do people say where you are at? How do you know where you are at? Why would it matter? There is no such things. We are all learning always it's non stop. Does anyone know how long it would take to learn everything in my style let alone master it? It's ludicrous.

there is a such thing. the learning is nonstop, but there are different levels regardless.

[Robinf]

Thanks, Sevenstar, for your thoughtful approach in answering.

Belt ranking generally goes with level of knowledge and spirit. Skill levels come in all sizes along with the people who attend. There will always be differences in skill levels. As different as the people who take the classes.

Point: One of our older students has arthritis in his hips and will never be able to do a full split (a skill of black belt level). Does this mean he shouldn't be a black belt? He has the knowledge, he's able to teach it well, and he spars well. We all have our srengths and weaknesses.

Since schools deal with the public at large, it is helpful, sometimes, to give the public what they're looking for. Some folks are hobbiests and like incentives--going for belts. Does this mean that the training will be watered down? No! Those who want to train hard and seriously still will and will get the sashes, or belts, that go along with their level of knowledge. This way, you can please the hobbiests and keep the school open, as there are more hobbiests than serious students, and the serous students wear but ignore the sash--they just keep training and never ask when the next test is or how long it takes until black belt.

Robin

[apoweyn]

Poor Jotun asked a very specific question. And so far, only Sevenstar and Surferdude seem to have actually answered it. He specifically didn't ask for people's opinions on whether belt ranking is a good thing. He acknowledged that it's a controversial topic and then asked for those of you who use a belt ranking system, how does it work.


Stuart B.