Leung Sheung

[5thBrother]

Hi all.

Leung Sheung

all information, stories, legends, facts, pics!!, details, url to web sites etc etc greatly appreciated...


thank you

5thBro

[5thBrother]

ps: is it true that his wing chun was influenced by his training in bak mei and choy lay fat?

[kj]

Here are some good places to start:

Bay Area Wing Chun Students' Association website

Planet Wing Chun and wingchun.com

A more comprehensive website dedicated to Leung Sheung will likely be published soon.

A recent message from Tsui Sheun Tin to the Ip Man Tong, highlighting his impressions with special acknowledgement of Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu. My Impressions of Yip Man Tong in Foshan

I don't know who you are or why you ask; maybe you already knew about these.

(Are you by any chance the brother who can hold his breath indefinitely?)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by 5thBrother
ps: is it true that his wing chun was influenced by his training in bak mei and choy lay fat?

Depends what you mean by "influenced."

When Leung Sheung began learning with Ip Man, he set aside his previous training, dedicating and immersing himself wholly in Wing Chun. He gave up his prior training, his students and livelihood, and even sacrificed time with his wife and children to live with Ip Man for 6 years. It will be hard to find anyone who gave up more for Wing Chun than Leung Sheung did. His near poverty is a testament that he taught Wing Chun more for love than for money.

A broad and deep understanding of other martial arts will of course inform one's practice. To imply that he mixed other arts with his Wing Chun would be inconsistent.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

KJ- thanks for the link to TST's comments on LS anf LY. Without those early days IM wing chun would have had an even more difficult time.

[reneritchie]

Leung Sheung WCK looks to me pretty close to how several mainland lineages do their WCK, so I don't put a lot of stock into cross-contamination stories...

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Rene,

Originally posted by reneritchie
Leung Sheung WCK looks to me pretty close to how several mainland lineages do their WCK, so I don't put a lot of stock into cross-contamination stories...

I was just curious to know, is your observation based on just seeing Ken Chung's Wing Chun, or have you had the chance of seeing other Leung Sheung students as well? Also, can you name a few specific lineages that you feel Leung Sheung WCK resembles?

Genuine question. Kinda sad when you have to worry about qualifying yourself so as to not be misinterpreted as a troll when asking a question, but I digress....

Thanks,
Alan

[kj]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
I was just curious to know, is your observation based on just seeing Ken Chung's Wing Chun, or have you had the chance of seeing other Leung Sheung students as well? Also, can you name a few specific lineages that you feel Leung Sheung WCK resembles?

Hi Zhuge,

René will no doubt offer more insight. In the meantime, and at a minimum, he has met and exchanged with Dr. Jack Ling, another student of Leung Sheung.

René also met me and my training partner, Mark, on several occasions. That doesn't factor heavily in response to your question though, since a) we train under Ken (therefore somewhat redundant, just as with Ken's other students whom Rene met, like JL), and b) it was largely before we could demonstrate anything reasonably representative anyway (though I'm sure the Bay Area contingent did a much better job in showing student progression).

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[tparkerkfo]

Hi,

Just adding to KJ's response. As we were not there, and it is hard to know exactly what Leung Sheung knew, was taught, and how HE taught, it is hard to say exactly how Bak Mei and Choy Li Fut influenced him. I myself am skeptical that any person could spend so much of their life developing skills to a high level, as Leung Sheung was said to be pretty good at his other arts, and not have them have SOME influence. However, We are told that he was so amazed by Yip Man's skills that he quite those arts cold turkey. But, being and older adult with a lot of martial experience, I would assume that there was some influence in his thinking. I have no doubt that when he learned something he probably thought about how it could be countered. So I think he would have a greater appreciation for wing chun. If one is suggesting that he some how blended his wing chun with a bak mei or choy li fut flavor, then you would be disapointed. There is no bak mei or Choy Li Fut influence at all.

I have seen some YKS and I would say that there are huge differences. But as Rene said, there are certain traits that do seem similar. Rene has suggested that Leung Sheung lineage is the closest to what he does, but I don't think he meant that is was close. I view Yip Man wing chun as very specialized. I see other arts like Yuen Kay San as more expansive, meaning they didn't spend years trying to simplify the art as perhaps Yip Man did. This is based on my observations and many would argue that it is not true.

PS, I too would love any stories of Leung Sheung. LOL.

Tom
________
HAWAII DISPENSARIES

[reneritchie]

Hi,

I've met Ken Chung Sifu and Jack Ling sifu, I've also met students of the Leung Ting and Paul Lam lineages, and I vaguely remember one fellow from HK whose sifu's name escapes me. Each had some element of similarity. Jack Ling sifu was the closest in terms of overall "flavor". Ken Chun sifu had the same kind of "receiving" feel. Paul Lam's students had many of the same drills. etc.

In general, they kept the same body points (knees closed in to one-fist-distance (kim sut), etc.).

There were differences, of course, as well, but the core seemed to be more similar to Sum Nung WCK (and I'd hazzard Gulao as well based on what I've seen) then many others.

(Please note, I'm just talking about the absolute bread and butter basics below basics here, not how a certain hand is turned or the hight of an elbow in a certain point of the set, or anything like that - just the overall mechanics that are identifiable in all our arts).

[John Weiland]

I don't find Ken Chung's Wing Chun engine being similar to any but his Leung Sheung classmates, Jack Ling and Siu Wong, and the HK based Ah Dak, and of course his foremost student, Ben Der. Any similarities perceived in different lineages are probably superficial. Ken Chung's Wing Chun is pure Leung Sheung. Leung Sheung taught what Yip Man taught him. Ken's unique training, putting in eight training hours a day, five days a week from an early age, and Ken's natural gifts, makes him Leung Sheung's best exemplar. There are plenty of recountings of Leung Sheung's early years with Yip Man, so it can be seen that Leung Sheung's own training was under unique circumstances. KJ has some good articles and a FAQ at http://www.rochesterwingchun.com/ describing Ken's Wing Chun.

Characteristicly, Ken Chung this Saturday was allowing his students to perfect their often painful techniques on him, a teaching method handed down through Leung Sheung. I suppose one could do a poll---how many other teachers let their students practice on them until the teacher detects the correct energy? From what I've seen, most teachers practice on their students, not the other way around.

Historical anecdote: Ken also mentioned Saturday that Leung Sheung told him, if Yip Man were to watch him (LS) practice, Yip would still correct him.

[t_niehoff]

John Weiland wrote:

I don't find Ken Chung's Wing Chun engine being similar to any but his Leung Sheung classmates, Jack Ling and Siu Wong, and the HK based Ah Dak, and of course his foremost student, Ben Der. JW

And you've seen everyone else in WCK to make that broad statement? TN

Any similarities perceived in different lineages are probably superficial. JW

LOL! That can be good or bad. But again, you've seen everything . . . . TN

Ken Chung's Wing Chun is pure Leung Sheung. JW

I don't think that is necessariloy a good thing -- why would someone want to be "pure Leung Sheung"? TN

Leung Sheung taught what Yip Man taught him. JW

Same with everyone else. It's not what YM taught him that matters but rather what he could do and what he could teach others. TN

Ken's unique training, putting in eight training hours a day, five days a week from an early age, and Ken's natural gifts, makes him Leung Sheung's best exemplar. JW

Sure, everyone's sifu is "so-and-so's best student". Of course, it begs the question of how one makes this determination. TN

There are plenty of recountings of Leung Sheung's early years with Yip Man, so it can be seen that Leung Sheung's own training was under unique circumstances. JW

Everyone that studied with YM has their own "unique circumstances." What I always find interesting is how folks point to these things, rather than proven performance (being able to use it) as proof of their "mastery." TN

Terence

[John Weiland]

Hi Terence,

Originally posted by t_niehoff

I don't find Ken Chung's Wing Chun engine being similar to any but his Leung Sheung classmates, Jack Ling and Siu Wong, and the HK based Ah Dak, and of course his foremost student, Ben Der. JW

And you've seen everyone else in WCK to make that broad statement? TN

Have you seen everyone in Wing Chun Kuen? Is this a debate point? The thread poster asks for information. If you read what I said, you'll find information in addition to my opinion, which is also information.

Any similarities perceived in different lineages are probably superficial. JW

LOL! That can be good or bad. But again, you've seen everything . . . . TN

Am I required to be an authority on every obscure path of Wing Chun Kuen such as yours in order to post? I would venture that I am a more reliable source of information than many on this topic. What's a matter, Terence, jealous? While I recognize that Rene has met Ken, that is a far cry from implying understanding. Rene is entitled to his opinions, but experience in other lineages does not necessarily inform his opinions vis-a-vis Ken Chung's.

Ken Chung's Wing Chun is pure Leung Sheung. JW

I don't think that is necessariloy a good thing -- why would someone want to be "pure Leung Sheung"? TN

You don't think? Obviously, it is a good thing, because of who and what Leung Sheung represents in terms of Wing Chun. Again, I'm not debating here. You should look it up. And stop making it up.

Leung Sheung taught what Yip Man taught him. JW

Same with everyone else.

Oh? What evidence do have of this? Leung Sheung made it a proud point to say that what he taught was all from Yip Man. What is the source of your Wing Chun?

It's not what YM taught him that matters but rather what he could do and what he could teach others. TN

There you go. Now we're getting on the same wavelength.

Ken's unique training, putting in eight training hours a day, five days a week from an early age, and Ken's natural gifts, makes him Leung Sheung's best exemplar. JW

Sure, everyone's sifu is "so-and-so's best student". Of course, it begs the question of how one makes this determination. TN

Feel free to start another thread. Re-read the previous message and then tell me what other living Wing Chun teacher has such a background and Ken's achievements.

There are plenty of recountings of Leung Sheung's early years with Yip Man, so it can be seen that Leung Sheung's own training was under unique circumstances. JW

Everyone that studied with YM has their own "unique circumstances."

So what? Do their circumstances match Leung Sheung's?

What I always find interesting is how folks point to these things, rather than proven performance (being able to use it) as proof of their "mastery." TN

Good point. Thanks for bringing this up. Don't doubt that Ken can prove his Wing Chun skill. So can his students. BTW, I don't believe in masters. No such thing, Terence.

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
In general, they kept the same body points (knees closed in to one-fist-distance (kim sut), etc.).

There were differences, of course, as well, but the core seemed to be more similar to Sum Nung WCK (and I'd hazzard Gulao as well based on what I've seen) then many others.

(Please note, I'm just talking about the absolute bread and butter basics below basics here, not how a certain hand is turned or the hight of an elbow in a certain point of the set, or anything like that - just the overall mechanics that are identifiable in all our arts).

Hi Rene.

Having met and spent time with you, Antony and Georgia, I know what you are saying. I have seen a broad range of Wing Chun so far, especially within the Ip Man families, and hope the trend continues. I have met many practitioners, and notable number of teachers and "masters." So I have at least some basis for comparison in recounting my own experience. I also studied and was exposed to different flavors of Wing Chun before my time with Ken, so some of my comparative experiences are very much first hand. Not to mention I've seen a lot of videos, as most folks have, LOL.

When we compared our sets (you, Antony, Georgia, myself and others) there were some obvious differences. Your range of "techniques" overall appears much broader, and I would characterize what I practice to be significantly more minimalist in comparison. We also have tremendous differences in terms of practice exercises and drills.

However, when we touch hands, you, Antony, and Georgia felt consistently more "familiar" than most hands I've touched from other schools, even Ip Man groups, aside from than those I know and have experienced in the Leung Sheung line. I "felt" we were on very common ground.

We can think of Wing Chun more in terms of techniques, or more in terms of "engine." I tend to put more concentration and emphasis into the engine. (And FWIW, need to put a heck of a lot more emphasis there, too. ) Not coincidentally, this is an area particularly emphasized by my teacher and others I know who studied from Leung Sheung.

When I touch hands with my friends from the Sum Nung line, I feel some similar aspects of our "engines," which in turn drives our hands. Not identical, yet strikingly similar, at least from my practitioner level and perspective. Thus your hands too - in application, if not in sets - also feel very "compatible" to me. This was true when working with all 3 of you, but perhaps most noticeable with Antony.

I am only and honestly recounting my personal observations and the feel of the hands (meaning more than just the "hands"), and not offering this from a lineage centric POV. I realize other people's experiences and observations will differ.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

John W.asks:
I suppose one could do a poll---how many other teachers let their students practice on them until the teacher detects the correct energy?
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Everyone that studied with YM has their own "unique circumstances." What I always find interesting is how folks point to these things, rather than proven performance (being able to use it) as proof of their "mastery." TN

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A couple of anecdotal comments-

John-I understand the purpose involved- not showing the teacher is tough so much as "detecting the correct energy". About 4-5 months ago I brought Sifu Fong up to my place to correct my students. Sifu Fong wanted to help a particular student
develop the "explosiveness" of power because there seemed to be still some dependence on local muscle or "pushing".. He had the student
"palm" him on the chest. The student thought that his palm was pretty powerful (it is). But Sifu Fong kept taking it ...saying-- where's the power. Then the student got corrected and the palming was repeated again- until the proper power was felt-
and was evident to the student and myself as well. Ho Kam Ming
is about 80 years old and retired from active teaching. On several occasions with me present-He didnt offer his chest- but his own raised palm(no pads)- for specific students to hit hard until he detected the right energy usage in the development process.
The teacher's "feeling" in some way of the actual full power of a student is a somewhat rare but great opportunity for development. Conversely- a small sample of the teachers power
can give the studenta hint on the correctness of the path atleats to power. Of course there are other things besides power and many ways of
teaching and learning.

Terence- some years ago againsta person whp appeared to be ready- I saw Ken Chung quickly close the gap, penetrate the defense of the other fellow and hit the fellow with a shocking double palm.
As a person who is not in the Ken Chung line and does many things differently- I for one have zero doubt about Ken Chung's mastery of power, speed and timing..