24 Simplified Set

[RAF]

Brad:

Mei Ying Sheng
http://www.geocities.com/meiyingsheng/

Student: Ted Knecht
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Etwk/

Ted, at one time, lived in Columbus but is now near Cleveland. He has tapes available of Mei Ying Sheng and Mei Ying Sheng was a real disciple of Fu Zhong Wen. Ted is a very good teacher and is fluent in Chinese and knows the culture well. He is a professional translator with both experience and proper academic credentials. YOu could always visit.

You can read more about Mei Ying Sheng in the book:
Tai Chi Training in China: Masters, Teachers, and Coaches
Howard Thomas

See you at Arnold's?

[GLW]

As for Fu's students..

He Weiqi in New York learned from Fu Zhongwen as well as Madame Wang Jurong.

He Weiqi's neice, Jenny Tang, learned from Fu and also assisted him in his later years.

There are others such as Wu Xiaoping in Houston. She learned from her parents, Madame Wang Jurong and Dr. Wu Chengde as well as from Gu Luxin, Ma Yuehliang, Wu Yinghua, and Fu Zhongwen.

Fu's lineage is a bit harder to find in the US.

Dong's lineage is easier.

Many in China felt that Fu and was more of a successor due to learning for a longer time and assiting YCF than many others...but Dong was qlose to him as well.

Many that claim connection to Yang Zhenduo learned in seminars or a month here or there in trips to China...

So, the real thing on lineage starts with who you learned from...but doesn't end there. There is also how long did you learn, how close were you to the teacher, and did you truly understand what was taught and learn it well or did you muddle through.

bottom line - if you are happy with a teacher and are getting benefit from classes and not getting ripped off or led into a cult...then be happy.

If lineage and exact correct method is important to you, work on basics while you look for the perfect teacher. AND...when you find them, be prepared to move to them. The mountain will NOT come to Mohammed.

[Repulsive Monkey]

T.T.Liang did learn his form from Cheng in Taiwan. It was after they had been in America for a while that thet parted company. Unfortunately I feel it was Cheng's American students who remained doing Chengs stuff after his eath which caused a lot of disinformation and disruption especially with Liang. Liang like all of Cheng's Taiwanese students were taught the Yang short and Long forms. Cheng taught his 37 posture short form pretty much just to the American students and a simplified sword form.
I don't want to upset people here but the American students of Cheng did not get as much as the Taiwanese disciples. This could be why the remaining Taiwanese disciples of Cheng who still live in America tend to dissasociate themselves from the American branch.
As far as amount of time spent with Yang, i've read quotes of the Dong family that thought Cheng spent only 6 months with Yang, but the truth is more like that he spent about 5-7 years in total. After Yang Cheng did not go off and study with anyone else, Tai Chi-wise anyway. there is always the account that he was not looked upon too well by the Yang's because it was found out that he had studied for a while with someone else while under the tutelage of Yang, supposedly a Taoist monk. This, if irrefutable, could constitute the stigma that traditional Yang sty;list have inherited against Cheng, prehaps!!?

[wujimon]

Hi R.Monkey,

I always thought there was a difference between Cheng's american and his taiwanese students, but never had it verified. There have been some students who have trained under american students of Cheng that have come to my current school and they do say there are some differences between what they're taught and what my current teacher learned from Liang.

Thanks for the info.

[wujimon]

Ohh.. just wanted to post a linke that I had found while searching for comparisons between CMC and YZD.

See the link below, pretty interesting:

http://www.sataichi.com/compare.html

[mtod1]

Hi all.

cha kuen, sorry I can't answer you q? as i''m only about half way through this form. But, here's a couple of hopefully useful sites for you to check out that have video, pix, txt etc that cover the 24.

Seeya

http://www.chentaichi.com/

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/net...hformenter.htm

http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head8e/index.htm

http://www.gilmanstudio.com/OnLine_Class/Lesson03.htm

[GLW]

The difference between those who learned in Taiwan and the Americans...well that may also be the difference between the Chinese and Anglo students. There is a typical approach to teach watered down to non-chinese that may be in effect with Cheng Manching....

"As far as amount of time spent with Yang, i've read quotes of the Dong family that thought Cheng spent only 6 months with Yang, but the truth is more like that he spent about 5-7 years in total. "

This 5-7 year account is from Cheng and his group in Taiwan. The refutation came from a number of Yang chengfu's closer students including Fu Zhongwen and if memory serves, some of the dong Family. similarly the Yang family at this time do not seem to regard him as being in their lineage.

Interestingly, I HAVE seen film of Cheng doing the traditional set. It may have been what he was showing or any number of reasons (he may ahve been just appeasing the filmer so not showing his best) but it did not seem to compare with people like Fu Zhongwen, or Yang Zhenduo.

[JAZA]

The disciple I'm referring is maestro Luis Pedreros, I don't know how much time he learnt form Fu Zhongwen but I think he is disciple of his son too and from others arts like Chen Tai Chi from Chen Xiao Wang and Chen Xiao Xing or CLF Luohan Qigong from Chen Yong Fa.

http://personals.ip.ictonline.es/%2b...os/LUISFUc.jpg

He is on the video:
http://www.fushengyuan-taichi.com.au/video.htm

[jon]

Here go's nothing...
Im gonna open myself up to a bit of fire probarly over this one but seeing as this is an interesting discussion and some very knowledgeable people are posting im hoping someone else may know what im talking about.
My linage has a Yang 'traditional' two man form, its a fairly long and complicated set and first contact is made when both partys meet palms with each standing in single whip face to face. From then on the form basicaly never breaks contact.

According to my sifu.
My sifu's Tai Chi comes from his family, his grandfather was a student of Yang Chen Fu in his reasonably early days and was taught along with several others buisnesmen basicaly for a large sum of money. This may sound crass but it was expected that each would be taught proparly and as such the Tai Chi is of a high level and contains all the other hall marks of the style of that time. No short form, long form of 85, short and long sword form, short and long sabre although my sifu now only practices the short, spear or staff, push hands, Doi Da (sounds like that said in Chinese) which is the two man set.
Again according to my sifu this set *was* taught by Yang Chen Fu but only to some students, he also claims this form was from Yang Lu Chan and not Yang Chen Fu's creation( yeah yeah i know). As a prime example my sifu claims YCF stopped teaching this set later in his life and even within the Yang family only YCF eldest son actualy practiced it. My sifu believes this was mainly due to the intervension of the govenment in many Kung Fu schools and YCF not wishing to come under to much scuritiny changed quite a bit of the outward apperence of what he was teaching. This would also be around the same time YCF's postures became much larger and he stopped performing the form with any fa-ging in public.

Ive read elsewhere that this set was a creation of one of YCF's students. The only thing i cant understand here is my sifu's grandfather learnt from YCF directly so i cant get this link.
The other thing which supports my sifus claim is by simply looking at the set. Its complicated fairly fast contains fa-ging and can be done in multiple ways to try and offset your partner. The circles are smaller and there is is a fair amount of actual punching and striking as oppossed to just pushing and pulling.

Im just interested if anyone has any experience with this set, i only know what ive been told. Ive read some other explanations and know of some other linages who practice this set including (ive heard) Yang Shao Hao's linage.

Im not trying to imply that what ive stated here is the gospel truth, its simply what ive picked up from broken conversations with my sifu. My sifus english is far from perfect and my Chinese is non existant so there is of course also a chance ive misinterpreted some of this sets history.

Anyway, anyone else know anything about this?

[Repulsive Monkey]

How strange that one of Yang Cheng Fu's best and his first and eldest disciple Chen Wei-ming had nothing but good things to say about Cheng and knew of Cheng spending more than months but years with Yang. Yang cheng fu trusted and respected Cheng Wei ming and I feel that his accounts , admittedly not in great detail or length, seem to contradict Dong and other "CLOSE" disciples of Yang. I do respect Fu Zhong-wen and Dong Yijing and there are wiothout a singluar dount good students of Yang, but their animosity towards Cheng seems less like stating facts but more like as I say animosity towards him, which intrinsically could very well give a whole slant on their comments.
This is natuarlly a lot of conjecture, and Cheng's martial capability were never in doubt. I cannot and do not know wht Cheng did not continue to keep Yang's form intact for all, maybe he as an individual was very much the opposite of someone from the east hoodwinking students from the west, who knows? I think more than hoodwinking, Cheng actually provided for his American students what he felt they could cope with otherwise he would of tried to eleveate them to the standard of his Tawainese disciples, maybe!!?

[GLW]

One of the things that may enter into it is Cheng's like for drink.

Such things in life can and do impact one's abilities.

For example, Yang Chengfu was known to be lively and powerful and able to raise his legs high in single stance and kick. However, due to his weight and health, his abilities toward the end of his life lessened.

Cheng's may have softened due to his choices. He may have shown earlier students one way...lost some of his abilities later...and later students another way.

I had one teacher that had hip problems. My group began learning while he did not have the trouble. Our stances looked one way. Then one hip was bothering him and he had a lean due to it. Those that learned then had the lean as well. Later the hips evened but were higher. Those students learning then had even but high stances....so it goes.

As for Chen Weiming you have to wonder why. Dong, Fu, and immediate family vs. Chen in words. Bad Blood...possible. Friendship with one and not another...possible.

Wu De - not willing to say anything but good because it does not affect you...very much in keeping with Chinese culture.

So...who knows.

What is sure is that there have been enough changes from YCF to Cheng's method that they are truly distinct and probably more like separate styles.

I DO question how a faithful student could modify a routine to shorten it after his teacher stated that to make further changes would be disastrous...but that is ME....again, this is fun for thought but in the end, if you like what you do, do it well, and get benefit...whatever works.

[David Jamieson]

1. Opening of Tai Chi
2. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
3. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
4. Single Whip
5. Step Up and Raise Hands
6. White Crane Spreads its Wings
7. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
8. Play the Pei Pa (guitar)
9. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
10. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Left
11. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
12. Play the Pei Pa (guitar)
13. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Left
14. Strike With Fist
15. Step Up, Deflect, Parry, Punch
16. Apparent Closure
17. Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain
18. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
19. Single Whip
20. Fist To Elbow
21. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
22. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
23. Repulse Monkey: Right
24. Slanting Flying
25. Step Up and Raise Hands
26. White Crane Spreads its Wings
27. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
28. Needle to the Bottom of the Sea
29. Fan Through Back
30. Turn and Strike With Fist (4 times)
31. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
32. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
33. Single Whip
34. Wave Hands Through Clouds (5 times)
35. Single Whip
36. High Pat on Horse
37. Right Toe Kick
38. Left Toe Kick
39. Turn and Right Heel Kick
40. Brush Knee and Twist Step: Right
41. Brush Knee and Twist Step: Left
42. Step Across and Strike
43. White Snake Sticks Out its' Tongue
44. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
45. Right Heel Kick
46. Strike Tiger at Left
47. Strike Tiger at Right
48. Right Heel Kick
49. Turn to Double Temple Punch
50. Left Heel Kick
51. Turn and Right Heel Kick
52. Strike With Fist
53. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
54. Apparent Closure
55. Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain
56. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
57. Single Whip to Side
58. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Right
59. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Left
60. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Right
61. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
62. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
63. Single Whip
64. Lady Works Shuttles (1)
65. Lady Works Shuttles (2)
66. Lady Works Shuttles (3)
67. Lady Works Shuttles (4)
68. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
69. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
70. Single Whip
71. Wave Hands Through Clouds (7 times)
72. Single Whip
73. Snake Creeps down
74. Golden rooster Stands on Left Leg
75. Golden rooster Stands on Right Leg
76. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
77. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
78. Repulse Monkey: Right
79. Diagonal Flying
80. Step Up and Raise Hands
81. White Crane Spreads its Wings
82. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
83. Needle to the Bottom of the Sea
84. Fan Through Back
85. Turn and Strike With Fist (4 times)
86. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
87. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
88. Single Whip
89. Wave Hands Through Clouds (3 times)
90. Single Whip
91. High Pat on Horse
92. Cross Hands
93. Right Heel Kick
94. Strike Groin With Fist
95. Brush Knee and Strike
96. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
97. Single Whip
98. Snake Creeps down
99. Step Up to Seven Stars
100. step back and Ride the Tiger
101. Turn and Sweep Lotus with One Leg
102. Draw Bow to Shoot Tiger
103. Strike With Fist
104. Step Up
105. Deflect
106. Parry & Punch
107.Single Whip
108. Closing of Tai Chi

Now, you can break this down as many ways as you like because of the repititions (hence the short form). But there you have 108.

Tai Chi is concepts, principles and theories, but don't discount the form of it. The form is very important and in it are contained these concepts and principles through application.

You could probably even ramp up the form to more than 108 if you break it down into the minutia.

Concepts are principles are completely lost to those who do not understand the form first. This is why you learn the form first.
Then you learn the principles and theories and yin yang as you practice and move forward with this.

cheers

[count]

Sorry Kung Lek,
I don't see the Shoulder Stroke. You have to count it as it is one of the 13 postures of Tai Chi. So I think concepts and principles are more important than forms. Definately more important than how you "count" and I ought to know.

[David Jamieson]

apology accepted count.

but, concepts and theories are only words without the practice of form. You can't implement theory, nor can you understand concepts without the framework of the form.

Neither has more importance. They are all one piece. To neglect any of it is to neglect all of it.

besides, I understood there would be no math

cheers

[count]

Yes but principles are theories put into action. Who writes better fortune cookies here? I'm just jerking your chain. I learned all the forms but nothing helps as much as isolating the principles and drilling them over and over. Who can say how the ancients trained? I believe forms are an afterthought just like theory is an afterthought.

1. Part the mane 3 times
2. White Crane spreads wings
3. Brush knee twist step
4. Play guitar
5. Step back and repulse the monkey 4 times.
6. Grasp the sparrows tail left
7. Grasp the sparrows tail right
8. Single whip
9. Cloud Hands 3 times
10. Single Whip
11. High Pat on the horses head
12. Separate legs right
12. Double fists piercing
13. Seperate legs left
14. White snake creeps down
15. Golden rooster stands on 1 leg
16. White snake creeps down
17. Golden rooster stands on 1 leg
18. Weeving at the shuttles right
19. Weeving at the shuttles left
20. Needle at sea bottom
21. Fan through the back
22. Step up parry and punch
23. Cross hands and push
24. Apparent Closing

I guess that works as 24, unless you count sparrows tail as 4 techniques Now you can compare with Kung Lek's list and see what's missing.