24 Simplified Set

[David Jamieson]

I believe forms are an afterthought just like theory is an afterthought.

I agree. From the perspective that they (form/theory) are transmission mechanism developed following realization of principles of reality.

But, in the case of the neophyte who has not discovered the reality on his or her own, the form is paramount as is accompanying theory implemented through learning and practice applications. Form is a primary method of transmission in any manifestation in any field of study.

As for the chain yanking, Don't make me get my tiddly winks!!!

cheers

[Vapour]

My instructor is of opinion that 24 simplified set is not taijichuan. The set embodies no principles and he say he never met anyone who practice this set and can use it as a martial arts. He has slightly different opinon about 48 set. Because this is combination of other 5 style, if you decently understand all 5 style you might used it as a martial arts. But for him "if" part was big IF.

Is this 24 simplified set that bad?

[Prairie]

I don't know and almost certainly have not seen the 24-set that you're referring too. However, keep in mind that one cannot learn taijiquan as a martial art by exclusively doing forms regardless of the form done. Forms are a method of training. I gather that the 24-form you're referring to trains some things that your teacher doesn't consider to have martial content. It may train the pre-requisites like openning the joints and proper relaxation.

But again... I don't the form to which you refer.

[wujimon]

Hello.. you may want to refer to the following threads for similar discussion:

(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=19837)

(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=19386)

(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=20468)

Hope that helps.
wujimon

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Prairie
I don't know and almost certainly have not seen the 24-set that you're referring too. However, keep in mind that one cannot learn taijiquan as a martial art by exclusively doing forms regardless of the form done. Forms are a method of training. I gather that the 24-form you're referring to trains some things that your teacher doesn't consider to have martial content. It may train the pre-requisites like openning the joints and proper relaxation.

But again... I don't the form to which you refer.

Thank you wujimon for the links.

24 set is the form which every Mainland Chinese kids now learn in school and given the population of china, numerically is is the most popular form in the world. Also traditional form practioner cuss this form like bermin.

As far as I know, Cheng Man Ching 37 form is the shortest traditional form which is still considered as a complete set though other style of taijichuan do invent shortened form for learning aid as well as for the promotional value.

[Ether]

I practised the 24 step for almost 6 months and was never once told it would give me 'martial ability'. But as said below that applies to ANY form practised in isolation from complementary training. It is practised purely for health reasons. In fact, to my mind, it is suitable mainly for young children and old age pensions who would have trouble learning a longer form (for very different reasons).

There are several things that worry me (and my Sifu, more importantly) about the execution of the movements, but these equally apply to some other 'traditional' styles of Tai Chi.

Still, it was the first Tai Chi form i learnt and if it wasnt for that form I probably would not be doing the training that I am now.

[Laughing Cow]

One of my Chen TJQ teachers also runs a class teaching the 24.

Seen it, looks good when watching but there are no MA applications taught alongside with it.
They also practice the form to music.

AFAIK, the 24 was created by the PRC in the 1950's to promote health to the masses.

In Chen TJQ we are shown the applications as soon as we have learned a movement.

[GLW]

Realizing that 24 comes heavily from Yang style - there are many techniques that are almost identical to the Yang form...the changes in regards to the intent or application of the movement is minor in importance.

For example, Brush Knee and Twist Step. Mostly like Yang...so if you say 24 has no application there, you say the same thing about classical Yang style. Part horses mane - same thing. Ditto for Pick up needle at sea bottom, Fan through back, and Fair Lady weaves at shuttle.

Grasp Sparrow's tail is different in how it is done...but the intent is the same...you have to modify it a bit for the application but it is not that big of a departure considering how some applications in external systems are so well hidden you would NEVER guess how to use them from the form.

People like Fu Zhongwen HATED 24. His dislike came not from the form or really anything about it. He viewed it more as a unnecessary modification of his teacher's routine. His preference.

However, 24 is fine for what it is - a beginner routine for concept. By itself, it is enough for health but not enough to truly get deeply into Taijiquan. Then again, how many beginner level forms ARE good for understanding the deep aspects of any style?

[Vapour]

Originally posted by GLW
Realizing that 24 comes heavily from Yang style - there are many techniques that are almost identical to the Yang form...the changes in regards to the intent or application of the movement is minor in importance.

For example, Brush Knee and Twist Step. Mostly like Yang...so if you say 24 has no application there, you say the same thing about classical Yang style. Part horses mane - same thing. Ditto for Pick up needle at sea bottom, Fan through back, and Fair Lady weaves at shuttle.

Grasp Sparrow's tail is different in how it is done...but the intent is the same...you have to modify it a bit for the application but it is not that big of a departure considering how some applications in external systems are so well hidden you would NEVER guess how to use them from the form.

People like Fu Zhongwen HATED 24. His dislike came not from the form or really anything about it. He viewed it more as a unnecessary modification of his teacher's routine. His preference.

However, 24 is fine for what it is - a beginner routine for concept. By itself, it is enough for health but not enough to truly get deeply into Taijiquan. Then again, how many beginner level forms ARE good for understanding the deep aspects of any style?

Given that I haven't seen 24, I'm making wild guess. But just picking steps from particular style and puting together would be a complet mess.

According to Cheng Man Ching, taijichuan was called long hand not because of its length of the form but because of it's movement being continuous. Not only each step has meaning both from martial and health perspective, how each step shift from one step to the next step is also of significant importance. My guess is that 24 step do contain number steps of Yang form but it's was put in a way which has no meaning whatsoever between steps. That's probably one of the reaons why traditionalist often do not consider 24 step as taijichuan form. It's like a film which is so badly edited that it's make no sence at all. And if that is the case, I can't see how one can even learn a concept from 24 steps.

[GLW]

"Given that I haven't seen 24, I'm making wild guess. But just picking steps from particular style and puting together would be a complet mess. "

If that is all you did, it would be. However, the people that put 24 together knew something about what they were doing. It is a balanced set and flows very well. There are entire sections that could be done exactly like a Yang form and would work 100%.

It was aimed at being a beginning that still maintained what Taijiquan was...but not as an endpoint.


"My guess is that 24 step do contain number steps of Yang form but it's was put in a way which has no meaning whatsoever between steps. "

Not a good guess. There is still meaning there. Most of those that voiced the negative opinions, and I have asked a few of them, really have their argument boil down to "Not the way my teacher did it" Or else they have never done the other set.

"I can't see how one can even learn a concept from 24 steps."

For Yang style, you can learn the concepts from doing nothing but Grasp Sparrow's tail. It is one of the Signature moves of Yang Style, it contains parts of mst of the other movements. Drop an arm her...you have this posture, change this there, you have this other one. In fact, if you look, you can estimate a person's level to about 75 or 80% at least in their form from viewing their Grasp Sparrow's Tail ...

Their application level..well you have to touch hands for that one

[Laughing Cow]

I got the chart of the Yang 24 form in MS-Word document (3 pages)

Can't attach here though due to filesize.

If anyone is interested pm me with your e-mail address.

[KungFuGuy!]

This was the first form I learned in tai ji quan, it was fairly easy to learn and, in fact, emcompasses principles of tai ji. Why wouldn't it? We then moved on to the 48 form.

[yutyeesam]

I guess I'm confused as far as what one means in terms of gaining martial content. If this is the same Yang-24 that Yang Jwing Ming has a video of (performed by Liang Shou Yu), he shows the (sometimes multiple) martial application(s) of each posture.

I could see why teachers would teach this form as an introductory form, but personally, I think the form sequence is a little stale and lacks character...therefore, my "shen" is a little lower on the rare occasion I practice it, vs. the trad. Yang-37 or 108. But I don't think that has much to do with the viability of the martial applications of the form.

By no means is it complete, it's just introductory. For that matter, the Yang-37 is not a "complete" form either, compared to the 108.

Just my thoughts,
123

[Vapour]

Originally posted by yutyeesam


By no means is it complete, it's just introductory. For that matter, the Yang-37 is not a "complete" form either, compared to the 108.

As a practioner of CMC style, I'm really interested to know what, in you view, is missing from 37 steps. Don't tell me it's other 71 steps though.

For the 24 step, best thing for me is to ask my instructor for more detailed explanation. He teach Sun short form which had only 12 steps and the shortest form we do is called business man's form which is to repeat grasp sparrow's tail and he has not problem teaching it so I don't think his dislike is only to do with 24 being too short. But then, who knows?

[Brad]

Could be as simple as a communist China vs. Taiwan thing?