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Thread: Disarms: Anybody here practice or teach them?

  1. #16
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    Shooter-nice...I never thought of that. I take it you are you looking for a flinch type response from the fake throw to buy time for either the escape or the attack?
    Regards

  2. #17
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    Black Jack, exactly. Maybe not a flinch, but enough of a rhythmic pause to take the intiative one way or the other.

    On that same idea, we're 10x more likely to be attacked by a dog than a human, so it's one of the first things I show kids. We have lots of large mutts roaming our town and it's worked for me many times.
    Last edited by Shooter; 03-14-2003 at 11:03 AM.
    Tai Chi is

  3. #18
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    Shooter.

    Cool

    Come to think of it I remeber doing this as a youngster when rough housing for a king of the hill match. One of your buds is going to charge you and a good "fake" projectile fast pitch sends him covering his head, nicely disrupting that nasty rush that would of taken you from that wonderfull throne of mud and grass.
    Regards

  4. #19
    Originally posted by Black Jack
    Meaning that disarms are attacks of opportunity.
    I know exactly what apoweyn is thinking whilst reading this line. I am too.

    The rest of you can wonder.

    I don't have much to add; I'm a sports fighter/student and I recognize that; my disarm technique is tossing him my wallet. But good posts from Shooter and Black Jack.
    "hey pal, you wanna do the dance of destruction with the belle of the ball, just say the word." -apoweyn

  5. #20
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    Black Jack, Some kids have great survival instinct.
    Tai Chi is

  6. #21
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    Interesting timing.... I just taught a 2 day class on Weapon Retention and Disarmament.

    As far as the Gun disarms go (long gun and pistol) I tell my guys that if you cant physically touch the weapon from your starting point, forget it. Action is faster that Reaction, and if you are within arms reach of the gun you can make the attempt to hit the weapon or the arm holding it, and move inside the turning radius of the weapon. After knocking the weapon offline and moving inside, you can work on the disarm.

    In my method, I tell the guys "Control the weapon, Attack the Attacker." The guidance system (brain) is more important than the weapon itself.

    I think it is relevent to mention however, I teach these classes to Law Enforcement only. They don't have the option of retreat.... When they deal with armed individuals, there are only 2 outcomes.... The guy leaves in custody or on a stretcher. I also tell them that they need to realise that when wrestling with a gun, it is going to discharge.... Another important factor.....

    Mostly I think this whole thing is super risky. The only time it is appropriate is when there is no ability to retreat or no other method of disarming the subject (OC, Less-Lethal ordinance, or deadly force).

    my .02

    Bill
    May Your Blade Chip and Shatter

  7. #22
    Originally posted by TaoBoxer
    "Control the weapon, Attack the Attacker." The guidance system (brain) is more important than the weapon itself.
    Can you give some examples of techniques of this principle being applied?

  8. #23
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    TaoBoxer,

    Is that the LEO system known as "Pat, Wrap and Attack"?
    Regards

  9. #24
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    The pat/wrap/attack philosophy isn't unique.... It's just good training. I actually talked about that to this last class. I believe it was pioneered by a guy named Michael Boatman from the UK.

    As loathe as I am to "describe techniques" I'll give this a shot.....


    Johnny Badguy has a pistol trained on Officer Friendly. He is spewing explatives......

    Officer Friendly has to make some descisions... 1) Can I touch the weapon from where I am standing? 2) Is he gonna pull the trigger regardless of what I do? 3) Will I be better off complying?

    Assuming he has made the descision to disarm Johnny Badguy, Officer Friendly now has to decide to step Left or Right (chosing to go to the Open side or the Closed side).

    Assuming he will step to the Left he will 1) step out with the Left foot 2) hit the weapon hand with HIS LEFT palm, knocking the weapon off-line (expect a discharge) 3) attack the face (physically and psychologically offbalancing) then immediately follow the arm down for the Weapon. 4) once you have contact with the weapon, perform your disarm of choice

    The scenarios and techniques we run are roughly as follows:

    Holstered weapon: attack with no gun grab, gun grab from the front with L hand, R hand, Both hands, grab from the grear, grab from the rear with a choke

    Weapon Presented: Grab from the front, Grab from the Side

    Weapopn Retrieval: Officer friendly lost his gun and now must get it back

    We also go extensively into retention of Long Guns, and thne into the Disarm portion, which includes multiple shooting positions of pistols and long guns, and an introduction of Impact weapons, such as clubs and knives.

    I am assuming you'll want to knit-pick at this point, which is fine.... It's what we do here.... I have run hundreds of scenarios with Simunition and Airsoft and these methods work well.

    Hope this helps......
    May Your Blade Chip and Shatter

  10. #25
    Originally posted by TaoBoxer
    Assuming he has made the descision to disarm Johnny Badguy, Officer Friendly now has to decide to step Left or Right (chosing to go to the Open side or the Closed side).
    Which type of stances and gun-holds is "Badguy" using when you train your disarms?

    Have you found a difference in percentage of successful disarms in relation to stances/gun grips?


    Originally posted by TaoBoxer
    2) hit the weapon hand with HIS LEFT palm, knocking the weapon off-line (expect a discharge) 3) attack the face (physically and psychologically offbalancing) then immediately follow the arm down for the Weapon.
    How do you train the hit(s) to the face?

    I assume there is no control of the weapon until after you have hit the face. Have you also worked without hitting the face, but instead, maintaining control of the weapon? If so, what were your percentages of success with each?


    Originally posted by TaoBoxer
    I have run hundreds of scenarios with Simunition and Airsoft and these methods work well.
    What are your overall percentage of success vs. failure in your disarm scenarios?

  11. #26
    The local POST academy ACT curriculuum, LOL!

    I have three friends who are on the local jail staff and who are attending CAT1 in order to become fully certified Sheriff Deputies. They were just showing me some of the stuff they were "taught" tonight.

    To quote the great Col. Kurtz: "The horror....the horror..."
    Watchman what did they show them? Clearing to the inside of something?

    BlackJack, the much maligned x-block. When it's executed only as a block and not a feeding technique to a grab or lock.

    Other than that Knifefighter is handling the questioning better than I could.
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

    DM


    People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene

    Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    FL
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    knife disarms


  13. #28
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    Slightly OT

    Source: Martial-arts move used on man, 33, who died after alleged robbery attempt on Staten Island
    Updated: Sep. 13, 2022, 7:43 a.m.|Published: Sep. 12, 2022, 8:50 a.m.

    A 33-year-old man died after he allegedly tried to rob two 29-year-olds at St. Albans Place and Pacific Avenue in Eltingville on Sunday, Sept. 11, 2022. (Staten Island Advance/Jan Somma-Hammel)

    By Maura Grunlund | mauragrunlund@siadvance.comJan Somma-Hammel | jsomma@siadvance.com

    STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. — A 33-year-old would-be robber who tried to stick up two men with a fake gun in Eltingville later died after the victims fought back and subdued him with a martial-arts technique, according to sources.

    Officers responded to a 911 call of a gunpoint robbery in progress at Pacific Avenue and St. Albans Place just before 2 a.m. Sunday and found the 33-year-old man unconscious and unresponsive, according to a written statement from the NYPD’s Deputy Commissioner of Public Information.

    The deadly confrontation occurred in front of St. Alban’s Episcopal Church and behind a major shopping mall. The scene in the normally-quiet area remained roped off with caution tape on Monday morning.

    The would-be robber displayed what appeared to be a firearm, but turned out to be a BB gun when the weapon was recovered by police, according a spokesman for the NYPD.

    He demanded money, police said.

    During the course of the attempted robbery, the two victims, both 29, did some type of martial-arts move to knock the gun away and physically subdue the 33-year-old until cops arrived, according to a source with knowledge of the investigation. The suspected robber, who stood around 6 feet tall and was very thin, somehow lost consciousness, the source said.

    He was pronounced dead at Staten Island University Hospital in Ocean Breeze, the police spokesman said.

    The medical examiner’s office will determine the cause of death.

    Police have not filed charges against the two 29-year-old men, who suffered minor injuries to their arms and legs during the confrontation. They were treated at Staten Island University Hospital in Prince’s Bay.

    The case moves to the district attorney’s office for review, the source said.

    The identification for the 33-year-old man, who has a lengthy criminal history, is pending family notification.
    The way I read this, the disarm was the 'martial arts' and the cause of death is still to be determined.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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