When&Why did kung fu begin to emphasize forms so much?

[Royal Dragon]

From what I can se 300-400 years ago, most systems had maybe a dozen forms at the most. Now many oF those same systems have 30,40 or even 100 or more forms. I think each generation adds forms to the system, and afetr a wile, they really start to pile up. That's why I always look for the original system when I can. There is less material to learn.

I'd say the concentration on forms is a modern thing to replace the barbaric act of fighting.........................................T hen came the UFC

[stormmountain]

Yeh, I do agree that many styles have just grown BLOATED with forms.

[SaMantis]

stormmountain!!!

what up? it's good to see you on the forums ... this is Sam from Boston!

[stormmountain]

Hey Sam, I PM'ed you. Send me your email address.

[Laughing Cow]

I also agree that many MA have become bloated with Forms, especially the short forms.

Besides having many forms I get the feeling that many students are rushed through them and don't get the essence of them.

OTOH, it might be a re-curing stage during the evolution of the MA in general.

Fighting and the socio-economical scene has changed a LOT in the last 100yrs and the MA need to find new ways to adept to them.

Add with that the modern way of instant gratification, over-bloated egos and similar ...

I am not so sure that we are actually seeing a new trend, but rather a recuring trend of growth followed by weeding out of techs and forms.
This naturally would happen during more peaceful times, when notes could be compared with other styles.

Just some thoughts.

[Oso]

When you read a book you start with the first paragraph.

You finish the first chapter.

Then the entire book.

At each step of the way you can summarize each paragraph, chapter and then the entire book in fewer words than it took the author to write. You gain an overall understanding of what the author was trying to say.

[Royal Dragon]

True, but what we have today is more like the Starwars Trilliagies. Over all, we have 6 really good movies, but everyone is also writing thier own books with a star wars theme.

Sure, these new books are all good, but shouldn't one know the original movies well first to better understand the new books?? And if someone really knows the first 6 movies well, don't you think the new books are not over kill?

[Oso]

dude, you're stretching my analogy a bit too far.

Yes, there are probably too many forms in most systems today. But, from the research I've done, most sifu's will say that there are 6 or 7 forms that are all you really need to know to get a good handle on a system.

I was trying to point to why I felt forms are a good part of any system. If it's an older form from created by a pivotal figure in the system then, after learning the entire form, you can get an idea of what that person was trying to do with the art.


As far as learning a bunch of forms, I think that is only limited by the amount of time you have to practice each of them. Knowing 100 forms that you only practice 15-20 of regularly means that 80 of them aren't doing you a heck of a lot of good.

I think it's an interesting contrast that tai chi systems will have, nominally, 1 form and other kung fu systems, especially hard/external systems, will have many. I don't know what that means exactly (and don't anyone throw the 'it's better to know one form blah blah blah' out there ) but it's interesting to think about.

[prana]

I can almost generalise that forms not as important to the Western Artists but have been emphasised greatly in the east. Also, Eaterners tend to repeat the forms over and over again, more so that Westerners, who learn many different forms.

I think many Westerners come into MA with the "martial" aspect of it as emphasis. Many Easterners enter MA with the philosophy of it as the emphasis. Hence whilst Westerners takes a year to get strong physically, and spend more time bulking up muscles and increasing strength for fighting, the Eastern approach emphasises more on getting the minute movements right in forms.

It was immediately clear when I moved from my home country to here.

[Laughing Cow]

Prana.

Great post and I concur.

My Sifu won't let us advance on anything until he is satisfied that we got things down 100%.

Example:
He often laments that there is too little "spiral energy" in most TJQ today, and hence stresses developing this a lot.

Cheers.

[Oso]

prana, I'm about as scotch/irish/english/american western as it gets and I dig forms a lot and make every attempt to play them as often as possible and rip them apart to figure out what makes them tick.

so, I guess I disagree with that generalization. You read a lot of mma guys opinions around here but I think they represent a minority of westerners who are studying martial arts.

I'm not sure what is more martial then a form that shows you how to knee someone in the face, kick them in the bladder while breaking their arms/dislocating their shoulders.

[prana]

hehe no offense intended, hence I guess I said "generalisation".

[Oso]

no offense really taken, I just disagreed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by prana

I think many Westerners come into MA with the "martial" aspect of it as emphasis. Many Easterners enter MA with the philosophy of it as the emphasis. Hence whilst Westerners takes a year to get strong physically, and spend more time bulking up muscles and increasing strength for fighting, the Eastern approach emphasises more on getting the minute movements right in forms.

It was immediately clear when I moved from my home country to here.

Dunno if I agree with that part, especially when grappling is involved. You HAVE to understand the minute details or your technique has a much greater chance of failure. In the past, I've likened that aspect of it to kung fu.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso


so, I guess I disagree with that generalization. You read a lot of mma guys opinions around here but I think they represent a minority of westerners who are studying martial arts.

I dunno... Alot of the Americans I know that study traditional styles hate forms too. Of the ones I know that do like them, NONE of them would be content with only learning like one form per year or whatever.

I'm not sure what is more martial then a form that shows you how to knee someone in the face, kick them in the bladder while breaking their arms/dislocating their shoulders.

WARNING: MMA answer...


Actually sparring and doing it against a resisting opponent.