Anyone Care To Contribute?

[Vapour]

Originally posted by SevenStar


What are you basing that on?

Something I noticed when doing judo is that it is very difficult to take someone on to the ground. Judo make it slightly easy because of jacket which allow number of throw which isn't possible without it. If you do Sumo, this is more apparent because in sumo only way to win is to take down your opponent on to the ground or to push the guy off the ring but sumo has special belt which make it easier to do throw as well.

Unless you have huge weight advantage, it is not so easy to take someone onto the ground from tackle especially if elbow to the back of the head (often instant knockout and possibly fatal) or knee to the face (not necessarily fatal but very painful nontheless) are allowed. If you taclke and failed to take someone to the groud on that instance, you have to disengage or you get hit at the back of your head which is fatal. That is why spinning backfist and elbowing to the back of the head is banned in all boxing and kickboxing event.

In my view, more realistic grappling strategy against genuine karate/tkd/kungfu practioner who has conditioned fist is to tackle and tries to control their arm and upper body first rather than aiming for lower body. This is more apparent when opponent has weapon in selfdefence situation. It is easier to takedown if you tackle lower body but it is far riskier. Even then you have to worry about his kick and knee especially if you miss.

For example, look at this gracie video

http://www.gracieacademy.com/multime...deoclips.shtml

Almost all the clips in that site is about grappling, however, check out the clips in self-defence section. In that section, all the move are throws, joint controls and when there is one instance in which gracie charge he charge to control the hand which held weapon. These moves are specialities of aikido and hapkido where they attempt to control and throw opponent by lock.

If your opponent has weapon or has very powerful punch or kick, and your style is close quarter fighting or grappling, your best tactic is to charge at instance before the opponent make committed attack (very difficult, takes years to master the timing) or instance after the committed attack (safer but still difficult nonthless), this is in fact the tactics practiced a lot by aikido and hapkido.

It is often said that it is what you don't see which is most important. In gracie or any grappling arts, it is the timing of charging which is fundamental to their arts as self defence.

Well that is my view anyway. Please comment.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Vapour,

Training gloves have an interesting history. Jack Broughton was the second bare-knuckle boxing champion of the 18th century. He made his fortune nut only from the money and prizes he won in the ring, but also from the fees for teaching pugilism to the gentlemen of Engilsh aristocracy for self defense from the thugs who hunted the London streets.

The aristocracy at that time frowned on their sons suffering from the marks of the prizefighters trade. Broken noses, cauliflower ears, scars, disfigurement....were to high a price to pay for a hobby. In response to this Broughton had his noble students spar while wearing big training mits called "mufflers". They were designed to protect the face as well as the hands in training.

Bare-knuckle fights in those days were really a combination of boxing, rough and tumble wrestling, and dirty fighting.

Hmmm, i.c. Okey dokey. Thanks you for the info.

[Black Jack]

Just trying to point out that "yes" gloves were made to protect the hands in training. You mentioned bare-knuckle history which I know a little about...sheesh

[CrippledAvenger]

As an addendum to Black Jack's point, the Dempsey-Willard title fight, WITH gloves ended up wth Dempsey shattering the heavyweight champion's cheek, breaking several of Willard's ribs, and generally maiming the man.

So, once again, gloves are really not for the benefit of the one being hit.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vapour
If you taclke and failed to take someone to the groud on that instance, you have to disengage or you get hit at the back of your head which is fatal.

Are you basing this on all the guys you have seen killed by blows to the back of the head or some BS that your clueless instructor told you.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vapour


For example, look at this gracie video

http://www.gracieacademy.com/multime...deoclips.shtml

Almost all the clips in that site is about grappling, however, check out the clips in self-defence section. In that section, all the move are throws, joint controls and when there is one instance in which gracie charge he charge to control the hand which held weapon.

Out of all the things learned in the Gracie curriculum, the "self-defense" portion is the one area in which many Gracie students will tell you they feel is unrealistic.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Knifefighter


Are you basing this on all the guys you have seen killed by blows to the back of the head or some BS that your clueless instructor told you.

If you know any competition which allow strike to the back of the head, let me know.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Knifefighter


Out of all the things learned in the Gracie curriculum, the "self-defense" portion is the one area in which many Gracie students will tell you they feel is unrealistic.

Because the best against weapon is not to charge against your opponent but do Nike defence.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Vapour


If you know any competition which allow strike to the back of the head, let me know.

As legal blows? Nothing really to my knowledge.

However, it is worth noting that many professional boxers get rabbit punched at some point in their carreer. You have a dirty-enough opponent and they'll find a way to sneak that shot in to the back of the head. Now, I'll have to review the boxing deaths list that's on EJMAS (I think... I have it bookmarked somewhere), but I don't know how many boxers have died from those. Not many recently, at any rate, so I'd hesitate to call it a "Fatal" shot.

But if enough evidence suggests that it is, then I'll admit it straight up.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vapour
If you know any competition which allow strike to the back of the head, let me know.

A variety of MMA venues in Brazil have allowed these strikes for years. Many times BJJ fighters take their opponents' backs and hammer the back of the head, neck, and spine with elbow shots.

The first three or four UFCs all allowed this.

Every challenge match done at the Gracie academy has allowed these strikes.

The Dog Bros stick fighting gatherings allow these strikes with a stick.

I've personally been hit in the back of the head and spine many times with elbows, fists, and sticks. Hasn't killed me yet.

[Merryprankster]

I'm going to say it since nobody else feels like being a *****.

Vapour, you're living in a fantasy world. The things you are discussing are LOW percentage. You MIGHT severely injure somebody with an elbow to the neck or spine, but in real life, 99.9% of the time, the "defenses" you are describing and "reasons," for the things you believe will wind up with you flat on your back and some guy boot stomping your face in.

[SevenStar]

LOL, so much for trying to be nice about it

[FatherDog]

Excellent, MerryPrankster posted before I was able to, so I'm able to continue looking like a pleasant, reasonable guy.








....except for the fact that Vapour IS living in a fantasy world.

As mentioned, most of the early UFCs allowed elbows to the back of the neck. And although it was illegal, Branco Cikatic elbowed Mark Kerr 5 or 6 times in the back of the head whilst Kerr was taking him down... all it did was **** Kerr off.

When you are being taken down, you are off your feet and your balance is being taken. No matter how hard and conditioned your fists and elbows are, you cannot efficiently issue power strikes unless you sprawl out, something that traditional karate does not teach. Period.

[Vapour]

There is a sport which trying to do take down all the time. Sumo. Sumo begin every fight with each contestant having very low stance and they charge (or tackle, whichever you want to call it). If the opponent's stance is up, we (I did fair bit of sumo when I was a kid. It's such a fun game) alway try to get their leg. Most sumo contest end with push out rather than throw (which include take down). To be honest, the tackling posture is not stable position. It is great to push into one direction but once you are static, low stance is the least favourable position. It's pretty obvious but if you upper body is not upright, you don't have root that is unless you have someone to lean on. But this simply means that your root depend on your opponent. Sumo wrestler train their flexibility extensively (even low ranking sumo wreslter can do split) so that they can maintain as low stance as possible while maintaining upright posture.

I practice judo so I say this again. It is not easy to do take down. Otherwise every judo competition would end up with each contestant trying to charge into opponent leg. In judo, when someone is physically weaker than the opponent, he is often forced to squat down. At this point, it is relatively easy to be flipped because the guy doesn't have root. Not looking down is one of the many things you get told off when you are a beginner.

Sure elbow or knee won't have any power if root is off. The thing is that it is not so easy to take someone's root.

[Merryprankster]

Vapour, you are correct that a TACKLE is not a stable position.

A SHOT, however, is.

In judo it's hard to score ippon from a leg attack. Since ippon is the goal, Judoka train more pickups and throws than single leg, double leg, and knee and ankle pick variations. However, the Russians and Europeans have been VERY successful with their pick-ups and leg attacks. Maybe YOUR Judo doesn't use them much, but these guys are champs at them--whole clubs and judoka specialize in pickups.

In sumo, a shot isn't useful--the knee hits the ground so you'd lose. Sumo is also all about the throw--but you can't use a sacrifice throw of any sort because you'll lose--you have to make sure the opponent hits FIRST, regardless of who initiated and who has ultimate control. And yes, more are won by push-out. Take the push-out away and they'd be won by THROWS. It's a function of the rules.

In folk and freestyle wrestling, where your grips and attack methods are not restricted (I can throw, shoot, snap down hit the mat first as long as I am the one who winds up in control, etc) the most often used scoring techniques are leg attacks--shots.

And dropping somebody on their ass who thinks whacking somebody on the back of their head is a "defense" is REALLLLLLLLY easy.

But thanks for playing our game!