Why I left Wah Lum

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Here you go guys. You keep asking whay everyone left, all "the greats" etc., so rather than talk rumor I opend a thread for you to speak your mind. Please don't speak for someone else or make assumptions. Let Dean, Sean, Tracy, Art D, Mike and others speak for themselves if they wish to comment. If you have an issue then speak up or shut up.

Moderators,
Please allow a little leeway on this one so we can clear up all the crap in the rest of the threads. Thanks.

I'll go first. I haven't left. I haven't exhausted the material I have now so I'm not real interested is learning something else. I got tired of starting over every time I went to a new school so I made up my mind to stick with one until I exhausted the material.

I've had some issues in the past and still have some just like I did in all the schools where I've trained. Nothing I wish to go public about so don't ask. I'm loyal enough to stick it out through the tough times but renegade enough that I'll probably get kicked out before quitting.

yu shan,
You're outspoken enough to speak your mind as I believe a real MA should be so you can go next. BTW, I wasn't in the area when you were here last. Maybe next time.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I had resolved myself to avoid this issue, but.. i feel equally responsible to set the record straight..

History: I came to Wah Lum in 1990 bringing my son, Sam, to begin his training in what i believed to be the most authentic Chinese training available in the area (i was right).. i spent some time in the Kung Fu program, but quickly found that Tai Chi and its application to be superior "for me"... I quickly advanced in the Tai Chi program, won several major competitions, started instructing Tai Chi students and within the first 4 years had MC's confidence.. the next 5 years were spectacular, insightful, and greatly beneficial for me.. MC took time and patience with several others and myself to advance our Tai Chi skills and personal lives.. MC brought many world famous Masters to the temple and much was learned/shared.. At some point, and i'm not sure when, Suzy Chan decided to assume the leadership role for the Tai Chi program.. that was the beginning of the end for me and several others.. years of hard work and dedication were discarded in favor of Suzy's "interpretation" of Tai Chi.. That being said, i must qualify that statement by saying that Suzy has a profound and beautiful understanding of "movement", she has a reasonably strong internal power.. but, by my own understanding, a poor "interpretation" of the "essence" of Tai Chi.. and, and even poorer understanding of people skills..

The Events: I approached MC about an invitation i had received to do a seminar for a local Tai Chi group.. after some discussion, MC allowed me to teach the seminar.. some months later i approached MC about teaching some classes downtown at a local Wellness Center, again he allowed me to do so.. Now, after beginning to teach the downtown classes, Suzy found out that i had taught the seminar and was gravely concerned.. She pulled me aside and said that she had lost faith in me and that had betrayed Wah Lum.. now, here is where i may have erred.. i did not tell her that i had also received permission to be teaching the downtown classes (her negative response to the seminar was too frightening to add fuel to the fire).. none the less, i had signed up for this journey under MC and felt allegiance only to him.. Then the inevitable, Suzy found out that i was teaching downtown.. this was the end for her, she dismissed me in front of the students regardless of my assertions that MC had given me permission.. Subsequently, in a meeting between Suzy, GrandMaster Chan Pui and me, i asked MC to explain the situation and he said he didn't remember, then he said he might not have understood what i was asking.. in short, he did not back me, he failed to honor the permission he had given.. i will not go into the antics and accusations made by Suzy at that time or my own less than honorable response to the situation.. anyhow, a short time later i offered to take a polygraph examination in front of the students to set the record straight.. this angered Suzy and she accused me of calling MC a liar, then called me a liar.. since then i have heard that she intends to obtain an injunction barring me from the Temple if i return..

So there you have it, there was fault all the way around.. but, by my own account, ultimately.. Grandmaster Chan Pui failed to honor his own word, failed to back a faithful student, and failed to control the events of his own Temple.. in a private meeting between MC and me he said he was unhappy with the events and hoped i could come back, i respectfully declined in as much as Suzy would only look for more reasons to remove me.. i asked if he could intervene on my behalf, he said.. "it no work, she boss now".. a sad legacy for a great Master..

My humble apologies to those that may be offended by this post, it is only my most sincere and truest accounting of the events that led to me leaving the Temple.. I expect, and probably deserve, some criticizm in this matter.. but my intent is to offer insight into the how life at the Temple is challenging at many levels.. Yet, no one can deny MC's greatness as an ambassador of CMA and the quality of students that have passed through those doors.. This is as much as i will discuss publicly on this matter..

Peace, and be well..

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Boy I really did it this time. This one just might do me in but I'm tired of the rumor, insinuations, second hand info and misinformation.

Well, we all miss having you around but nothing lasts forever.

Doesn't sound like a lack of apps or quality of training to me. Like others, you just didn't fit in anymore. And that's probably how it should be since everyone can't stay there forever. The Temple is going through a time of change and we need to move aside and let the changes happen.

I remember Richard Allen coming back once and saying to me "You're still here? What's wrong with you?". I believe the intent at the Temple is learn and train and move on to teach others. Anyone that hangs around too long is pressing their luck. I liked having my kids around when they were kids but as adults it's tough living under one roof. Same goes for the Temple when you mature enough in the art. Fortunately for me I was able to move on while staying within the system but I feel I should have gone years ago. I've rubbed people the wrong way on more than one occassion.

Anyhow, got to make room for the next generation especially now with Mimi assuming more and more control. Sorry things went wrong for you but I'm sure you prefer to remember the good and not dwell on things you have no control over. Maybe it will smooth over some day so you can drop by without stirring controversery.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Indeed, training from MC was, as always, superior.. your insight is perhaps most appropriate.. perhaps he knew that the new regime and i would not marry well and took the opportunity to let nature take its course.. conjecture, but it works for me..

In any case, the time spent training directly with MC (and, fortunately there was a lot of it) was the best in my Martial Arts history.. it was as much training in living as it was in Martial Arts.. (as if there's a difference)..

I have let go of the hurt and feelings of betrayal.. now, i just miss the people, the general atmosphere of the Temple, and, yes, the Charisma of WL..

Be well.. and i wish you much success in your own adventure (you've earned it)..

[woliveri]

Started WL in 84. Went to China in 85 with MC.

I'm not going to be too verbose in this reply just because I don't have the time.

That being said, I left due to several reasons.

1. Essense of Kung Fu not being taught. To qualify, training of qi in Kung Fu (root training). Outside of WL I have learned this.

2. Essense of Taiji not being taught. Again, training of qi in Taiji (root training). Also correct training in alignment for push hands. Again, outside of WL I have learned this.

3. Restrictions on not being able to obtain this training elsewhere while still at the Temple.

4. Various politics in training seminars with other Masters. Specifically, SC getting daily personal training with Li En Jiao (I wrote Li Lian Jie before, have Jet Li on the brain) while the rest of us get weekends and no availability for questions or fixup.

5. The endless amount of dividing up forms and stretching them out so that maybe you'll get the whole set before your death. In a word, games.

6. No qi gong allowed to be practiced or no discussion of qi gong theory by teachers.

When I left, I believe I had a good repore with MC. However, I don't know my status now after posting on this board, stating my stance. Anyway, I still cherish the time I had at the temple, mostly in the "old" days when MC still taught class.

Anyway, that's all I can remember now and are the major points.

[Taz]

My Wah Lum story is far less interesting or infamous as the many others who have posted. My story is simple- I wanted to learn about jing and applications and be in an environment that was open to ideas and the exchange of ideas. Funny, but Wah Lum (from the various posts) seems to frown on learning and sharing from others. I just thought this was just the way at the WL school I attended. It appears to be similar throughout.
The general theme seems to be similar from post to post. What concerns me is not the discontent that students had or have, but the outcasting when the decision to leave was made. In many cases, like in mine, it was done with the utmost respect and amicability. Yet, like in the times of the pharoes, my name must be stricken from all WL records. Present students cannot socialize with me. At tournaments and shows, we cannot fratinize. What has changed? The decision to learn from a new source-What is so threatning? What's the concern?
Unfornately, this cannot be answered by the posters here, but please share with this Master Chan, Mimi, Suzy and have them contemplate an answer to this question.
I was always taught not to burn bridges and leave anything on good terms with which I have made my lifelong bond. I find it difficult to comprehend that this outcasting is necessary, humanistic, and bound in tradition. It appears to be part of human frailities such as jealousy, anger, and fear.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Taz,
My first Kenpo instructor played bass guitar in a band when he was learning Karate. He missed so many practice sessions with the band because of Karate he was told to make a decision. He went with Karate. Because of that he expected everyone to do the same. A top student wanted to be a singer and when he landed a job in Atlantic City Sensei was infuriated. That's the last I ever heard of him. I was a top student when I left and he was so ****ed he wanted my belts and certificates back.

Sometimes they take it real personal, like you're cheating on them when you learn somewhere else or leave. Especially if you're close or a top student or Sifu. I've seen new students at the Temple who were training at other schools at the same time. MC just vies them differently. To MC it's an insult to him if you go elsewhere for your training (unless he gives permission) and he feels betrayed if you do it behind his back. It's kind of like a marriage. You're wife is a brunette but you really want to have sex with a redhead. Is it ok to do that? Personally I ask my wife first but she always says no.

BTW, I don't hide my identity so if you see me around a tournament or somewhere say hello.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri,
I'm curious, did you speak up? Sometimes I get the feeling that people just assume things and don't really ask or speak up. Seems to me it should be easy if planning on leaving anyhow. And it seems that the only people who notice any favoritism are the ones that aren't getting any. I've never figured out how to get there myself and since MC feels like he got burned by those he gave a little extra to in the past I don't expect to ever get there. Makes it tough for the rest and it gets worse after each incident.

I worked for a companny (geez, another story) that was losing employees. What they did was set up an exit interview for employees that turned in their notice. That gave them some insight into what and where the problem was so it could be addressed. Most of the time they don't see it themselves. Like the monkey climbing the tree your view depends on where you are on the tree.

You have to be thick skinned and able to handle hearing the negative AND willing to compromise to remedy the situation. Personally I like negative feedback. It's usually a little more honest.

[woliveri]

Hua Lin,
Speak up about what? To which point in my list above should I or could I have spoken up about?

[18elders]

to make it very simple and leave out out the politics and crap over the years, i left to improve my kung fu.

you guys haven't trained with us so you don't have anything to compare to, i spent 10 years in WL so i know what i'm talking about. I know alot of WL sifu's and know what they say about things they are not happy with.

As far as the others i don't think they will post(sean dean etc.)
But i will comment on something SC told us when he was our sifu.
He stated MC would always tell him to stay with him and he would teach him the "real" wah lum, what he tought was just training forms. Guess he got tired of waiting


But anyways, best of luck to you guys in whatever you train in.

[woliveri]

Yeah, right... MC is going to teach SC, a non-family member, the "real" WL? Good thing he didn't hold his breath.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri,
Specifically items 3 and 4. Did you tell him how strong you felt about learning qi gong? Did you ask about getting extra time with Li En Jiao? I just feel like people complain but haven't really made an effort to work out the problem. If your interest is mainly qi gong then you were in the wrong school and leaving should not have been a problem. That's like *****ing that you don't train enough grappling in Wah Lum. There isn't any so you have to go somewhere else. No problem. Personally I like to try to fix things before I give up. As for SC perhaps he didn't pass MC's little tests he's constantly giving people (unaware to them). Sometimes it's physical, sometimes it's mental, sometimes moral/spiritual. You need to exhaust what he gives you before you move on. If none of these guys worked out the apps and really understand the forms they were taught whay should he give them anything better?

Did any of you guys explain to them exactly why you left?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18 elders,
Anyone who is there or has been there knows the deal with the politics. It's like that whever you go (maybe your school is different, don't know) especially the large one. What makes matters worse is having it centered around family but then traditionally kung fu stayed only within the family and MC is very traditional. That tends to create an 'us' and 'them' attitude.

I haven't trained with you guys so I can't compare the two but I have trained at a few other schools. I know how others train, what they teach, how they teach. I've been to the street fighting focused schools and the hard core get in the ring full contact type of schools. Believe me, I won't be amazed by what you guys do there. Perhaps that's why some people felt mislead or lied to about Wah Lum. I knew exactly what I was getting and wasn't expecting anything different.

And if anyone still in Wah Lum has complaints I would recommend trying to solve the problem first before giving up. If it's still a problem after that then just go somewhere else and enjoy.

And I doubt Dean, Sean or the others will post anything here too. Just trying to clear the air so we can drop the 'why did all the greats leave Wah Lum' crap. Speak up or shut up. Once this thread closes it's done and we can get back to some serious discussion. Notice how the technical comments disappear and the forum degrades when this crap is introduced?

[woliveri]

Hua Lin,
First SC does not stand for Sean C. He77, I would have paid $$ if one of the other students had personal attention. Even if it wasn't me.

Second, WL is what it is and for me it doesn't fit any longer. No problem, I moved on.

I'm really tired of talking about this. The point is to let those at WL know that any serious student should never be complacent or satisfied with what WL has to offer or any other school for that matter. There is a lot more out there.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri,
Guess I don't know the SC you were talking about. After re-reading I realize my comment to you about SC and MC's little tests should have been directed to 18 elders since he mentioned that SC tired of waiting for 'the real' Wah Lum.

I think that happens for a lot of people, where they start no longer fitting what they want. I came from cuts-and-bruises Kenpo schools and was looking for traditional Chinese kung fu. Forms were fine but I still gathered enough support to get them to add a sparring class. I believe a bad experience or liability problem in the past caused them to stop sparring so there wasn't any when I got there.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience. I'm hoping this thread will put some of this to rest and everyone can move on to serious MA discussion. As soon as yu shan tells his story we'll be done.