SC=Suzy Chan
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Always Learning
Well I certainly wouldn't be surprised, or take exception to MC's wife getting special or additional training. And I'm sure she's more than willing to pass on what she learned to the students of Wah Lum.
While I didn't expect everyone to speak out, and wasn't expecting such detail, I thought yu shan would be scrambling to speak his mind. Guess I was wrong.
From the ones who posted I can see that 1) Wah Lum didn't offer what they wanted or wasn't what they expected it to be, 2) You can't have two lions in a school, once you mature into a lion you're bound to bump heads with the main lion so it's best you move on, 3) Whether they left under good or bad circumstances everyone seems to have benefitted from their experiences with Wah Lum (most stayed for quite a few years). I haven't heard anything that doesn't go on to some extent at other schools, especially the larger ones.
As with everything in life you have to take the bad with the good. You have to dig through a lot of dirt to get to the gold or diamonds. I still have a good time at the seminars, banquets and other WL events. There's still a lot of good people there and a lot more to learn.
With that said I'm going to end this thread. Speak up time is over. We can now go into the shut up phase. Next time the bashing starts, whether Wah Lum, 8 Step, Pong Lai or others tell the poster to shut up and leave or post something constructive. As for me I'm just getting my school off the ground and people are signing up so it looks like I'll be getting real busy.
Feel free to drop a PM or e-mail anytime or if you're in the area drop by to discuss Kung Fu. If you come to challenge me let me know ahead of time so I can put on my old uniform and sharpen my sword.
Apologies to anyone who was offended by this thread or anything I've said online.
Last edited by Hua Lin Laoshi; 03-23-2003 at 03:09 PM.
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Wah Lum is a good stepping stone to " a higher level" of Gong fu training. IMO Wah Lum will give you a strong foundation...but it stops there! It is unfortunately short-coming in many areas yet strong in others.
You cannot expect all the Shrfus who have left to even know of KFO/ and this thread. But I appreciate Hua Lin Laoshi, this was a very good attempt learning why some of us are disgruntled brothers.
Hua Lin Laoshi
Absolute prosperity and goodness to your family and your new school. Look forward to seeing you at Big Mike`s Wedding in April.
I invested eleven years with Wah Lum. Had what some thought were good teachers (AD & SC). I left to better myself, a style that filled the void, and will take me to the Mountain-top! Our door is always open, don`t expect amazement...Pong Lai will just "open your eyes"
God be with 101st and the rest of Brothers and Sisters.
Registered User
With that said I'm going to end this thread. Speak up time is over. We can now go into the shut up phase. Next time the bashing starts, whether Wah Lum, 8 Step, Pong Lai or others tell the poster to shut up and leave or post something constructive.
No offense Hua Lin but should the need to arise to "correct" any spin regarding WL I will take it. Also, don't confuse debate/conversation regarding a topic as bashing.
Well I certainly wouldn't be surprised, or take exception to MC's wife getting special or additional training. And I'm sure she's more than willing to pass on what she learned to the students of Wah Lum.
Nope, the essence of Taiji at WL is not being taught. No standing stake, body mechanics, jing, etc. Just Taiji form training. Now TaiChiBob can weigh in on this and correct me if I am incorrect.
That being said I wish you well in your new school. I ask again, are you setting up in Kissimmee? Where? What location?
Registered User
Greetings..
Essentially, you are correct.. and even that is subject to the new regime's personal interpretations, to likes and dislikes as opposed to solid traditional forms.. after years of consistency and example by MC, SC has overhauled the forms to her satisfaction.. with unflattering commentary regarding MC's way.. The most competitive and awarded players from WL came under MC's instruction, the new "leadership" is degrading the even the form to more of an "interpretive dance" than Tai Chi.. No instruction is given regarding foundational aspects such as QiGong, anatomy, correct structural alignment, body mechanics or beneficial meditative practices.. basically, it is dance the way i dance type of instruction.. As was once said to several of us in SC's Chen Class (which was dropped near the mid point of the form due to reasons unknown to the students).. I like this part as taught by so and so, and this part as taught by someone else, and i think this part should be like this.. in other words, there was no consistent basis for the form. As for application, it is non-existent.. i tried my best and the students were appreciative, but.. you see where it got me.. Push-hands is more of a two-person dance than a true understanding of the many energies involved in interactive Tai Chi.. drills but no actual practice..
Beyond that, the Sparring in the Kung-Fu class is just fighting without emphasis on technique not to mention the lack of application of technique specific to WL.. Big Mike tried to emphasize Technique, Dean tried when he was there, too and Dave was smart enough to avoid that train wreck.. but, there was no instruction from the "top", no control of the curriculum..
Most students and almost all instructors under the new regime are treated as potential traitors, suspects in an ongoing delusional paranoia.. oops, now i'm just venting, so i'll end this here.. with the note that whatever the situation, i fully respect MC's knowledge, ability, and skill..
Be well..
TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"
Always Learning
I'm on the east side of Kissimmee (south of Orlando) away from the tourist section. Still getting the word out locally. I overhauled the old Wah Lum website (originally my creation and don't have time to create a fancy new one) and I'm looking for a host and a good domain name. I'll post a link when it's up. Thanks for the support.
woliveri,
You guessed it, I do come out of the woodwork to smooth over the controversary and stand up for Wah Lum and the Temple. After all it is my style, my school and my Sifu (MC) so what do you expect?
Member
Hopefully Wah Lum will work out its issues. As it stands now, its heading dangerously close towards being the TKD of the CMA community.
Junior Member
Hey, Arrowfist
I find your comment quite commical, please specify what you mean??????
Registered User
Why I left Wah Lum-
Blah Blah Blah
The same as everyone else!
No application, too much politics. The "you can't attend that seminar" BS..............Neurotic behavior!!!!!!!!
And one thing I find particularily intriguing-
Were any of you guys around in the 80's when MC openly made fun of people who did tai chi? He would imply that tai chi was for people who couldn't do kung fu! He also called qigong "BS".
He didn't want anything to do with either one.
Longtime WLer John Lupos validates this statement when he wrote about it (very tactfully) in his recent book "Inside Tai Chi". Anyone who spent any significant time in WL will understand what he's talking about.
He states "This Sifu (MC) snickered openly at tai chi. So I was surprised when one day, after his return from a trip to China, he suddenly began teaching tai chi........"
Having said that, here's the bottom line:
I love the WL system- I feel that the forms are beautiful (on the few occasions that I see them done correctly and not like Wushu) and there is no denying MC's skill level. I only hope the current leadership realizes what it's doing and turns things around.
I agree with Yushan-WL is great to build a solid foundation, but it could (AND SHOULD) be so much more......
Jack
"Do not follow in the footsteps of the men of old, seek what they sought"
Registered User
Ditto Jack Squat.
I can concur regarding the Taichi and especially Qi Gong. I had heard MC got his tai chi from Bow Sim Mark. Don't know if that's true or not.
John Lupos wrote a book??? I remember he was a follower of Mantak Chia practicing Taoist Qi Gong. Don't know if he still is.
I also agree with your Bottom Line. Well Said. In fact, the whole thing was well said.
Registered User
Yeah, i remember once about 82 when MC said that unless you had an extremely good teacher for Chi Kung you could easily become either " over-sexed, over-angry, over-greedy, or over -controlling". Then JL had to go and prove him right.
Another time MC said if a Chi Kung Master(no need to name him) had such good control of his 'chi', he should be able to go run 3 miles and then come back to do his demonstration unaffected. Needless to say, the Master refused, citing some kind of ankle problem.
Back in the late 60's Master Chan was doing T'ai Chi. He called it WL 'Soft Form'. He never taught it to JL though. It looks like WL done soft and slow with the turning in the tan tien typical to the T'ai chi styles.
Peace
Last edited by spiralstair; 03-26-2003 at 06:44 AM.
Registered User
Yeah, i remember once about 82 when MC said that unless you had an extremely good teacher for Chi Kung you could easily become either " over-sexed, over-angry, over-greedy, or over -controlling". Then JL had to go and prove him right.
JL before is JL after. What's the diff?
Another time MC said if a Chi Kung Master(no need to name him) had such good control of his 'chi', he should be able to go run 3 miles and then come back to do his demonstration unaffected. Needless to say, the Master refused, citing some kind of ankle problem.
Not so, MC is wrong here. I personally know a very high level qi gong master who is not physically strong at all.
Back in the late 60's Master Chan was doing T'ai Chi. He called it WL 'Soft Form'. He never taught it to JL though. It looks like WL done soft and slow with the turning in the tan tien typical to the T'ai chi styles
Soft form does not equal Taiji. Just doing a WL form slowly does not incorporate the principals of Taiji. Sorry.
Registered User
"Another time MC said if a Chi Kung Master(no need to name him) had such good control of his 'chi', he should be able to go run 3 miles and then come back to do his demonstration unaffected. Needless to say, the Master refused, citing some kind of ankle problem. "
Why would a chi-gung expert run for the amusement of a peer?
Besides, running three miles and then performing chi-gung sets
doesn't prove or quantify any level of skill and that sort of muscular exercise has nothing to do with chi-gung.
Chi gung= energy work
Registered User
"Soft form does not equal Taiji. Just doing a WL form slowly does not incorporate the principals of Taiji. Sorry"
Good point. Rolling an orange slowly does not make it an apple.
Besides there are a lot of Tai Chi people out there not doing Tai Chi, go figure.
Always Learning
While Tai Chi is not my area of expertise (and off topic) I would like to comment. I believe there are six parts to WL Soft Form and I only know part two. What I know is very similar to the WL Kung Fu forms but I can't say that it's just a KF form done slowly. With that said I'd like to relate my view on Tai Chi. Kung Fu means hard work. That refers to hard external training which usually comes first at a younger age. Tai Chi means grand ultimate and to me means refining your techniques to their highest level (going internal minimizing energy expenditure). This usually comes later in life after the hard external Kung Fu. So my question is this: is Tai Chi the moves or is it the philosophy? (I realize Tai Chi was a fighting style at one time.) Kung Fu (hard work) can be applied to other things besides martial arts. I believe Tai Chi (grand ultimate) can be applied to other things as well. It's not the moves you do but how you train and express them.
Now in keeping with the forum topic I'd like to get some of the historians to comment on something I heard while at Shaolin on the 1998 China trip. Supposedly the Tai Chi guys used to kick Shaolin butt in the old days. This would include Mantis butt as well. Interesting since Mantis was the highest form of external Martial Arts. Please, no modern comparisons, only historical. Any truth to this?
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