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Thread: Why I left Wah Lum

  1. #31
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    Master Chan, in his inimitable way, was expressing the fundamental fault to most Chi Kung practices. Chi, if you believe in it, is a undifferentiated energy source. It has no particular quality of its own, it can be used for lots of different things.('martial chi', 'healing chi'...ect.). It's like water, a universal substance that is necessary for life, and in sufficent quantities, helps things grow. A person's internal state is like a garden, where things are 'cultivated' based on one's concious choices and, unfortunately, one's unconcious and instinctual drives.(anger,greed,sexual and controlling needs) The water grows EVERYTHING in the garden, weeds and flowers together. The more 'water' the more 'growth'.

    To a traditional martial artist their martial art becomes, in time, 'watercourses' in their garden, that serve to channel and direct the chi. To see if a martial artist has attained this is fairly simple. Their movement should be able to 'flow', connected and uninterrupted, moving in a wave-like manner between top and bottom. This mimics the movement of chi. This takes quite awhile to attain though, but has always been thought as the best way to form one's character ('weeding the garden'), before adding more water.

    Nowadays people seek to shortcut the traditional way, by directly increasing the waterflow into their 'garden'. They don't bother to do the arduous physical work of the traditional martial way. They dismiss it as unnnecessary and go right to the 'chi'. Unfortunately they often claim to have 'it', but move in a very disjointed way. One wonders, how can they feel the chi, if they can't feel their body enough to move it in a way that follows the chi? The answer is that the chi they are feeling isn't really 'there' in their physical body. It exists only in a mental construct of their body that lives in their minds.This is what MC meant by Chi Kung being 'BS". It is often 'claimed', but cannot be demonstrated.

  2. #32
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    Chi-gung practices are not merely for martial development, many people practice chi-gung and nei-gung for health and longevity.

    Tai chi is a style, not just a set of principles.

    Interesting. Two people commenting on styles and practices
    they don't study.

  3. #33
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    Bai He Wrote:
    "Interesting. Two people commenting on styles and practices
    they don't study."


    and you?
    Last edited by spiralstair; 03-26-2003 at 03:52 PM.

  4. #34
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    Interesting. Someone whose profile indicates he doesn't study Tai Chi/Chi Gong either criticizing others for daring to comment.
    There is a great streak of violence in every human being. If it is not channeled and understood, it will break out in war or in madness. ~Sam Peckinpah

  5. #35
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    Hmmm. Profile hasn't been updated in a long long time.
    Haven't been on this board in a long time either, seems not much has changed.

  6. #36
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    Well, rather than start a ****ing match and a credential tossing contest, I will leave you all in peace. Enjoy your practice.

  7. #37
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    The answer is that the chi they are feeling isn't really 'there' in their physical body. It exists only in a mental construct of their body that lives in their minds.This is what MC meant by Chi Kung being 'BS". It is often 'claimed', but cannot be demonstrated.

    I can see you've never been around a true Qi Gong Master and have never felt another's Qi. I have and therefore absolutely dismiss your above statement. I have seen a lot of Masters who didn't own up to what they should but on the other hand, when you are around a true Master you can see the difference.

    What's sad is those who blindly follow such statements and never look for themselves probably because they are suppressed from doing so (may get kicked out). In addition, to have someone of prominence in the Martial Arts community put it down in front of students. I would rather he say, maybe or let's check it out. Also, I've seen him sponsor a lady Qi Gong Master from China whom I never met but I heard her qi was strong. Also, I heard from other students while visiting China at a Chen Taiji camp they could see the qi moving up and down the practioner's legs. And opening and closing pore breathing. From a WL student.


    I have no answer to Hua Lin's question.

  8. #38
    Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
    While Tai Chi is not my area of expertise (and off topic) I would like to comment. I believe there are six parts to WL Soft Form and I only know part two. What I know is very similar to the WL Kung Fu forms but I can't say that it's just a KF form done slowly. With that said I'd like to relate my view on Tai Chi. Kung Fu means hard work. That refers to hard external training which usually comes first at a younger age. Tai Chi means grand ultimate and to me means refining your techniques to their highest level (going internal minimizing energy expenditure). This usually comes later in life after the hard external Kung Fu. So my question is this: is Tai Chi the moves or is it the philosophy? (I realize Tai Chi was a fighting style at one time.) Kung Fu (hard work) can be applied to other things besides martial arts. I believe Tai Chi (grand ultimate) can be applied to other things as well. It's not the moves you do but how you train and express them.

    Now in keeping with the forum topic I'd like to get some of the historians to comment on something I heard while at Shaolin on the 1998 China trip. Supposedly the Tai Chi guys used to kick Shaolin butt in the old days. This would include Mantis butt as well. Interesting since Mantis was the highest form of external Martial Arts. Please, no modern comparisons, only historical. Any truth to this?
    No idea of Taiji guys kicking Shaolin butt however, the one of the most famous exponent of taijiquan, the founder of Yang style, Yang Lu Chan, had the title Yang the invincible. He earned this by, well, being invincilble when he was doing tour of school closing in China, no doubt he kicked number of Shaolin butts while on his tour. That doesn't mean taijiquan is superior to shaolin. It just that Yang Lu Chan was a very very good martial artists. Now a day, most shaolin kungfu practioners can easily kick butts of taiji practioners, majority of them not even consider taijiquan as martial arts. And bjj practioners tend to kick shaolin butts but this is to do with the difference in the effort average bjj practioner invest in their training compared to kung fu practioners

    There is some misunderstanding of the meaning of taijiquan due to the English translation. Taijiquan is often translated as Great Ultimate Fist. Many people hence assume that taijiquan means the Greatest martial arts (fist). This interpretation is not correct. Better translation is Grand Polarities Fist. Grand Polarities is the central concept in Daoism, symbolised by the Ying-Yang symbol. Ying and Yang, polar opposite complimenting each other to make perfect circle. The taijiquan is based on the concept of Daoism, hence the name, not because it was the best martial arts Evar.

    On the question regarding whether taichiquan about the moves or its philosophy, I must say the later one is correct. However, this does not means that taijiquan is not about martial arts and all about qigong and harmony with universal ki. It simply means that our focus is on the principles of ying-yang strategy in combat than mere techniques. (Explanation of taijiquan principles takes too long so please visit our section of forum for insights.)

    Taijiquan forms are sometimes called "posture" form. Most of each posture in taijiquan has number of application (manifestation) into lock, throw, attack and/or defence. So the form is not a representation of techniques but more a representation and training method of correct body alignment and its transition from one posture from other. So as long as one adhere to these principles, it matter little whether someone is doing pushing hand or judo match or in mixed martial arts competition.

    Lastly, because it is more a matter of strategy in combat which differentiate taijiquan from shaolin, practice of tajiquan does not means the training is soft. For example, instead of doing horse stance to train leg strength, a taijiquan practioner might do single leg stance so as to differentiate yang leg with yin leg. Obviously this method of training is harder than horse stance as you must support the entire body weight with one leg. It is often recorded that training of taijiquan was extremely harsh in old days.
    Engrish does not mine strong point.

  9. #39
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    Adding to what vapour said.

    TJQ should manifest both softness and hardness, slow and fast the changes between those can come very quick.

    Combine this with the coiling energy and Fa-jing, weapons training, strength training, 2 man training.

    If you look at Chen TJQ which has shaolin influences (Red Fist, Cannon pounding) due to the chen village proximity to the temple, you will see those expressed in the forms.

    Seeya.
    Witty signature under construction.

  10. #40
    Anyway, there is some confusion as to the meaning of kung fu. Taijiquan is one of kung fu style. There are two version of origin of taijiquan, Chen family and Chang San-Feng. Either way, taijiquan trace its origin to Shaolin Kung Fu. The location of Chen village is very close to Shaolin Temple. And Chang San-Feng is said to be a graduate of Shaolin Temple.

    btw, I finished reading the entire thread just now. Someone posted the link to the second page of this thread so I didn't realised what this thread was about.

    To be honest, my feeling is that this organision is slightly cultish waiting to have internal explosion. I also saw the women's taijiquan form from the photo gallery. Though one can't tell much of what is goin on internally, she doesn't seem to be properly single weighted in the front leg when she is doing single whip.

    For what I know from my experience in taijiquan, most genuine taijiquan people don't argue much with interpretation of the form because what matter is the principles of taijiquan which are quite clearly stated in the classics.
    Engrish does not mine strong point.

  11. #41
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    Ahhhhhhhhhhh....... Now that felt goooooood.


  12. #42
    MC is master chan as in chan poi?

  13. #43
    MC is master chan as in chan poi?

  14. #44
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    [woliveri wrote:” I can see you've never been around a true Qi Gong Master and have never felt another's Qi. I have and therefore absolutely dismiss your above statement. I have seen a lot of Masters who didn't own up to what they should but on the other hand, when you are around a true Master you can see the difference.

    What's sad is those who blindly follow such statements and never look for themselves probably because they are suppressed from doing so (may get kicked out). In addition, to have someone of prominence in the Martial Arts community put it down in front of students. I would rather he say, maybe or let's check it out. Also, I've seen him sponsor a lady Qi Gong Master from China whom I never met but I heard her qi was strong. Also, I heard from other students while visiting China at a Chen Taiji camp they could see the qi moving up and down the practioner's legs. And opening and closing pore breathing. From a WL student.”]

    I’ve practiced and taught Chi Kung for 21 years. Been inside WL the whole time.
    Your reply to my previous post (top of page 3) displays some typical elements one finds in many ‘internalist’s’ thinking.

    [“I can see you've never been around a true Qi Gong Master and have never felt another's Qi”]

    That’s what one hears a lot when an ‘Qi person’ is asked to prove it. It always becomes the questioner’s fault, they ‘can’t feel the chi’ or they’re ‘not sensitive enough’, or the best one, ‘not developed enough’. As the Church Lady used to say, “how convenient..”.

    I’ve been around a few Masters, and many posers, and many people whose ‘Qi transmission’ relies on the Placebo Effect for impact. Nevertheless, the common behavior is always to first blame the questioner, never question one’s own ability. It is the basic problem with ‘the chi’. It can’t be seen, can’t be overtly demonstrated, and relies on testimony for proof.

    [“I have and therefore absolutely dismiss your above statement.”]

    Cool. A person who believes in ‘that which produces the ten thousand things’ can “absolutely dismiss” another’s statement. Duh, there are no ‘absolutes’ in the Tao.

    [“In addition, to have someone of prominence in the Martial Arts community put it down in front of students.”]

    You’re talking about MC here, right? Someone who has spent his whole life demonstrating the validity of his beliefs (in Kung Fu) by actually performing something that can be seen and judged by all. At all times, for all comers. With Kung Fu or T’ai Chi, you can see it. A person’s real development is right out there for everyone to see. With Qi Kung? Nope. Sorry. We’ll just have to take the ‘Qi guy’s’ word on it till we develop ourselves enough to ‘feel’ it.

    Peace
    Last edited by spiralstair; 03-27-2003 at 06:42 AM.

  15. #45
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    spiralstair,
    Very good explanation. To clarify something you said and woliveri commented about:

    spiralstair
    "Nowadays people seek to shortcut the traditional way, by directly increasing the waterflow into their 'garden'. They don't bother to do the arduous physical work of the traditional martial way. They dismiss it as unnnecessary and go right to the 'chi'. Unfortunately they often claim to have 'it', but move in a very disjointed way. One wonders, how can they feel the chi, if they can't feel their body enough to move it in a way that follows the chi? The answer is that the chi they are feeling isn't really 'there' in their physical body. It exists only in a mental construct of their body that lives in their minds.This is what MC meant by Chi Kung being 'BS". It is often 'claimed', but cannot be demonstrated."
    woliveri
    "I can see you've never been around a true Qi Gong Master and have never felt another's Qi." "Also, I heard from other students while visiting China at a Chen Taiji camp they could see the qi moving up and down the practioner's legs. And opening and closing pore breathing. From a WL student."
    I don't think spiralstair was including true Qi Gong Masters in his statement. "Nowadays people seek to shortcut the traditional way" is a clue that he's talking about people who don't take the time to really train properly. I hear people talk all the time about how they sit and circulate their Qi and do this and that but can't show any evidence that any of it exists at all. Now before you think I'm dismissing everyone you need to know that I was there in Shanghai in 1998 and witnessed first hand the incident you mentioned. I not only saw it but felt it. No mass hysteria, mind control or placebo effect. So if it's true and it's real why can't these others offer physical proof? I believe, like MC, when it comes to Qi Gong and internal training there more delusion going on than real training. Consider yourself lucky if what you're getting is real (can be manifested).

    This threads gone way off topic and off forum and I believe the topic has been exhausted. Someone start up a new one if anyone want to continue along these lines. How about Qi training in PM?

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