Beginnings of Shaolin Boxing - history

[r.(shaolin)]

"Actually it's the

[mantis108]

Well, I agree with r.(Shaolin). People often think that the greatness of a style can only be as great as its progenitor. What they forget are the links in between. If we paid attention to what was said about the monks where doing during Bodhidharma's time, we see that they were practicing meditation techniques incorrectly and they did not get the full benefit of meditation, which is what the word Dhyana (Ch'an) actually means. It is very likely that they skipped Asana entirely and may be using different pranayama techniques then Bodhidharma was using. This problem still exsits today because it is human nature to just focus on the sweet reward but not the bitter stuff that came with it. Traditionally, the 8 limbs of Yoga must be practiced together in order to get the full benefit. This was most likely what he saw and tried to rectify. Asana is not just stretching exercises they also help to focus or rather prepare the mind-body continuum so that the yoking of mind, body, and outer reality can happen. Why is it not possible for the Chinese people back then learned or practiced half-ass Budhism? How can we presume that everyone fully understood the foreign teahers and their languages with a foreign religion [re: concepts and all] at a time when academic pursuit wasn't even affordable to all. Religious study like martial arts is a complicate undertaking. I think a lot of people take things for granted. It is also understandalbe that some religious inclined folks would want the Hindu root seperates from Budhist practice to fit their own agenda. Any religion would have to struggle with growing pain so is Budhism as it took hold in foriegn land. Now that you add martial arts into the equation, you really have complicated the problem by a few folds. I am sure there were lots of martial activities even before the arrival of Bodhidharma but were they well rounded without the spiritual outlook of Budhism? Would they have the unique and distinct flavour that Shaolin arts process?

I believe we should respect other cultures' contributions. Give credit where credit is dued. That's the only way that Chinese martial arts or Shaolin martial arts for that matter would live long and prosperous.

Mantis108

[richard sloan]

...at Shaolin will tell you that Damo did not originate martial practice at Shaolin, but that it was two of Bato's disciples who were the first to practice martial arts within the context of Shaolin, one having been mentioned and I will here slaughter their names, Seng Chou and Wei Wong, our story is they were former military men who gave up their lives of killing- one could kick a shuttle**** a hundred times or more around a well, or something like that. I'm sure someone has that reference handy so please help me out...(r.shaolin?)

Ji Guang, becoming Hui Ke, is also said to have been a former military man.
The story we have been taught is that Damo did contribute four forms, two martial of aspect, and two not: Yi Jin Jing (we call this a "sutra" and not a classic- there is no indication of this being a written work) the Xi Sui Jing (also referred to as a sutra) the Wu Xing Chuan, and also Lohan Shi Ba Sho which eventually gave rise to the Lohan systems and the "big" Lohan form, comprised of 108 movements. This form is considered to be very sacred and is rarely passed on in it's entirety. Lots of variants exist because of this.

I don't see why it is such a far cry to make the reasonable assumption that Damo was trained martially, considering where he came from...

So in the tradition we are learning, there can be said to be four major contributors to Shaolin gong fu- Batuo's two disciples sort of count as one, Damo, Hui Ke, and the abbot Fu Yu. I have not yet heard what specifically anyone except for Fu Yu and Damo contributed.

[Royal Dragon]

Is Wu Xing Chuan the one that is about 36 postures in length and you hold each posture for 5-10 minutes?

Also, what is Wu Xing translated to? Am I correct in thinking "Five Animals", or is it "Five Imitations"?

[richard sloan]

It's five animals...I haven't learned any of it yet.

The only animal I learned was Eagle, and I have a feeling there is lots more to it.

[beiquan]

If we paid attention to what was said about the monks where doing during Bodhidharma's time, we see that they were practicing meditation techniques incorrectly and they did not get the full benefit of meditation, which is what the word Dhyana (Ch'an) actually means.

what was said? who said it? what were they doing incorrectly? what are your sources?

anyone can make a statement on the Internet. i have provided sources, what are yours?

understand that, by Bodhidharma's arrival, Buddhism had been in China for almost 500 years. many major developments in Chinese Buddhism had already occurred. many of the important sutras had already been translated into Chinese. numerous foreign monks had made immense contributions to the spread of Buddhism in China -- An Shikao, Lokaksema, Dharmaraksa, Kumarajiva, they all had many disciples, and their activities and writings have been recorded in many sources and included in the Buddhist Canon.

Why is it not possible for the Chinese people back then learned or practiced half-ass Budhism? How can we presume that everyone fully understood the foreign teahers and their languages with a foreign religion [re: concepts and all] at a time when academic pursuit wasn't even affordable to all.

see above. Buddhism had been in China already 500 years when Bodhidharma got there, how stupid do you think the Chinese people are? many sutras had been translated, annotated, commented upon numerous times, numerous other monks had come from India bringing teachings and practices with them.

It is also understandalbe that some religious inclined folks would want the Hindu root seperates from Budhist practice to fit their own agenda.

it's equally understandable that people seeking to add mystique to the legends concerning the origins of Shaolin would like to claim that CMA originated from India to fit their own agenda.

[beiquan]

r -

Actually that old (very old :-)))) fabrication is more about politics than fact. It was first propagated by Hsiang Kai in the second century, followed up by a piece of apacryhpha to substantiate it called Hua Hu-ching written by Wang Fu in the fourth century.

sorry that was a bad joke on my part. i just finished reading the 'bianwei lu' and doing some research on Fuyu and the debates of 1258 and the 'huahu' stuff was fresh in my mind. i guess my point was that people will make all kinds of crazy statements in order to legitimize their own traditions at the expense of others...

[mantis108]

You want sources - very simple - just read any number of books on Yoga and Budhism. Better yet find a Yogi and get his/her opinion about Dhyana. Scholars can compile historical events without even get involve with the activities. What makes them more authoritive then others who practice (walk the walk)? They "read" or "study" more books? Don't forget you are quoting from book too. Having said that I am not attacking your credibility. So please relax. From most of the accounts that talk about the monks points to that they were often not physically fit or falling asleep during meditations that indicates inproper practice in my mind. Inporper meditaion techniques or practice will make one sick too. Now I am not saying I have iron clad proof that's what happened. How many generations would have passed during 500 years and can we be sure nothing got lost during that 500 years? It only takes more or less 50 years to get people to think Modern Wushu is the real deal. Now it is even in the walls of Shaolin. In the 80, there was a visit from Japanese Shaorinji Kempo (?). The abbot then "immediately" recognize the founder of that style who supposedly was studying in the temple as a young man in his teens. That was like 1940s. Now if this is recorded in the Shaolin book of records. What would the SCHOLARS say in the future 500 years from now? Regarding the sutras, as many as millions of people have heard of or even read the Vajra Pranja Paramita (AKA Diamond sutra) how many people actually understand the parable that it was based upon? Just the title alone has the rich meaning of becoming Arhat or Lohan. Why of all things, the sutra's title has to do with the powerful weapon of the Indian King of the lesser Gods - Indra? Like all other religions, rationalism and mysticism are 2 forces that drive the debate. It is human to be a little bit of both. You might blindside yourself by just taking one approach. But that's your believe, I respect that.

I am joining this discussion not because I disapprove of your fine work. In fact, I appreciate it very much. But I also happen to agree with r.(Shaolin) and so I speak my mind. I am merely providing an other view point.

Regards

Mantis108

PS I am Chinese and I can speak (Cantonese), read and write Chinese. I personally don't buy that Chinese were and are smart to the point that we understand the original form of Budhism as good or even better just by reading translated sutras. That's why the 6th patriarch of Ch'an, who was illiterate and definitely no scholar, is important in developing Ch'an in China. But then he was casted out of Shaolin.

[beiquan]

mantis108 - well said, and thanks for your clarification. i very much agree with you that too much study and not enough practice can lead to a one-sided perspective. unfortunately the more you study, the less time you have for practice also, the traditional 'western' approach to historical scholarship is a very critical one, and this critical perspective has been carried over into religious studies. your post has reminded me that, especially when dealing with religion and mystical experience, this approach shouldn't necessarily be the only one.

bq

[GeneChing]

Tamo was our symbolic first patriarch and Shaolin was the symbolic origin of Kung Fu - emphasis on symbolic. If you're looking for a single point of origin for our vast legacy, you're nuts. Think about it. It's like trying to figure out who invented the internet but 1500 years from now (don't say Al Gore, he was our symbolic first patriarch.)

Seriously, if you're looking at point of fact, no one will deny that martial arts existed prior to Shaolin. What makes Shaolin interesting is that it formalized martial arts as an almost academic study, perhaps elevating it from strict self defence and combat, into a form of meditation. That's what Tamo brings to it - the practice as medititation. There's the Chan for you right there. Now Tamo being the first patriarch of Chan/Zen is a perfect symbolic figure for us to venerate. Sure, it's a bit of a leap of faith, but any spiritual practice will demand such leaps now and again. If you're going to be all scientific/historical, spirituality never factors into such an equation - it's the ghost in the machine. So any true Shaolin follower respects Tamo, even though many of his stories are no more than legend. If you can't live with that little paradox, maybe this practice isn't for you. Wait to you get to a real koan. That will tear the skin right off your head.

You know it's funny. I met some travellers at my most recent Shaolin trip who went to Shaolin to learn Kung Fu and Buddhism. Did they know the first thing about either? Not really. It was a bit like walking up to Harvard law school, not knowing the first thing about law. I was impressed by the people who immersed themselves into it and did the best they could. I was disgusted by the people who complained that they couldn't find 'real kung fu or buddhism' there, since their notion of these seemed more based on movies than anything else. Martial artists can be shallow to a fault. It's really a shame, since our tradition is so rich and deep. It really deserves better.

Great posts guys - love all the translation work!

[canglong]

Excellent post I agree Gene the threads in this forum are always enlightening and a joy to read and participate in thanks guys.

for the record

[GeneChing]

Speaking of Sengchou...

Ancient Inscription May Link Cave to Shaolin Kung Fu
Wednesday, April 26, 2017


(podoboq, via Wikimedia Commons)

SHIJIAZUHANG, CHINA—Xinhua reports that a 1,400-year-old inscription has been found carved on the wall of a cave in northern China’s Hebei Province. The inscription identifies the cave as a place of seclusion for Master Sengchou, who may have been in the military before he became a Buddhist monk in the sixth century A.D. Master Sengchou is remembered as a martial arts expert and is credited with promoting Zen Buddhism and the tradition of Shaolin monks practicing martial arts. “The discovery offers precious materials to study the history of local Buddhism and the Northern Qi Dynasty,” said Liu Xinchang of Handan City’s history association.

[David Jamieson]

14 years from now, I will comment in reply to Gene's response here.
Just to fit in.

[GeneChing]

Speaking of Sengchou...

Ancient rock inscription, monument discovered in N China
Source: Xinhua| 2017-07-24 16:01:25|Editor: Liangyu

SHIJIAZHUANG, July 24 (Xinhua) -- An ancient rock inscription and stone monument dating back 900 years have been discovered on a mountain in Cixian county, northern China's Hebei Province.
The inscription, made up of more than 130 Chinese characters, was carved on a piece of smooth stone about 1 meter high and 1.5 meter wide, according to the local cultural heritage administration.
The stone monument was underneath the inscription, on which about 300 Chinese characters were carved, it said.
Both the inscription and the monument recorded the renovation of Chouchan Temple during the Song Dynasty (960-1279).
Chouchan Temple is believed to be where Master Sengchou, a famous monk in the Northern Qi Dynasty (550-577), taught Zen Buddhism.
According to historical records, Sengchou learned Buddhist doctrine and martial arts at the Shaolin Temple. As a kungfu expert, Sengchou played a significant role in the tradition of Shaolin monks practicing martial arts.
"The new discovery offers valuable materials to study the history of Chouchan Temple and other famous temples," said Liu Xinchang, head of the history association of Handan city.

Chouchan Temple. I imagine the Chou is from Sengchou and the Chan is Chan.

[GeneChing]

I'm posting this on our Beginnings of Shaolin Boxing - history thread because it has a lot of yoga talk, and also copying it to our yoga thread.

Yoga meets Zen in Shaolin Temple(1/8)
2018-08-27 15:30:35Ecns.cn Editor :Yao Lan
查看原图










Yoga and kung fu enthusiasts perform in a cultural festival on Mount Song, home to the Shaolin Temple, in Dengfeng, Central China’s Henan Province, Aug. 25, 2018. (Photo: China News Service/Wang Zhongju)