"Alternate States"

[ZIM]

What is social psychology´s take on this?

It wouldn't really have one, at least not one that would speak directly to the phenomenon. Actually, I don't think that pure neuroscience would either- psychoneuroimmunology might, but only in part.

Meditation is a form of deprogramming, a chance to feel and experience the fullness of being human..

Agreed. Its often a temporary thing, even while ideally it shouldn't be. I was trying to differentiate between terms that are casually thrown about on various threads. Too often, IMHO, persons who are not familiar with either qiqong or meditation become fearful thru these 'rumors'.

we can categorize and label so much of the meditative experience that it becomes another ritual, another deception..

Not my aim, here.

Once the mind is quiet form becomes formless, spontenaeity arises, we become present in the current unfolding experience..

Thats the profound benefit of meditation. Qiqong, however...? I believe there's a difference, and that difference is valuable to reflect on, on & for it's own merits.

Peace

[Former castleva]

lol Zim,I was just fooling round.
I do know little about psychoneuroimmunology but I really do not get what you exactly mean.
Obviously these kinds of discussions really are not looking for smart-ass explanations for these subjective experiences.
But anyways to add some more stuff we can also point out that in meditation superior parietal lobe may show very little activity (feeling of silence,"quiet") which can really play with your "mind".
As in related disorders,it may additionally be hard to tell a difference between oneself and outside world as "in harmony with the universe" or whatever goes.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Indeed, QiGong is different from meditation.. but, not much.. Too much of the QiGong i have been exposed to loses sight of the goal in favor of the ritual (ie: forms, mudras, visualizations, etc...). My own experience is that while in a meditative state, while the senses are greatly heightened we can sense the rythmns and cycles of our bodies, we can subtly guide energy with will and intention.. Forms are useful only to expedite the process from an efficiency perspective, they are not "necessary".. it's sort of like racing a car on bad roads (no forms) or good roads (forms).. ultimately, intent, will and mind direct the action.. spirit supplies the inclination to do so..

Be nice!! i didn't say i was right, only that this has been my experience..

Be well..

[ZIM]

I do know little about psychoneuroimmunology but I really do not get what you exactly mean.

'S'allright. Maybe it'll be clearer in a sec.

Be nice!! i didn't say i was right, only that this has been my experience..

I am, actually! And I do respect what you're saying- its a very valid point.

Here's kind of what I was getting at with all this: Transformation. What is it? How does it occur?
It might be:

spontaneous or gradual
physical or mental
temporary or lasting
externally or internally induced [iron palm? red palm?]
come through grace or intention [thats an interesting one!]
invisible or manifest to others
progressive [ideally], regressive [the mistakes, hmm?] or *digressive* [a change of state, but not 'upwards' or 'down']

maybe others...are you feeling the pull of yin/yang here?

Now, I AM keeping qiqong as *transformation* separated from meditation as *transcendence* in particular, but I do admit there are areas of overlap. That does indeed maen that its a continuum, not a separation, truly..

What do you think of this? I'm actually pleased that you're responding on this- you're making me think on it more... anyhow I meant a deeper thing than what maybe came across at first...

And all IMHO, BTW.. thanks

[Former castleva]

"Psychoneuroimmunology is a rather new science which tries to understand the interactions between the immune system, being the defence apparatus against ill making intruders or malfunctioning cells of an organism, the nervous system, controlling all body functions, and the (more difficult to define) psyche (PS). "

Without psycho/neural additives,immunology is a medical specialty,if interesting one.
Makes me think of neuroendocrinology,small subspecialty of neurology,while different.

[ZIM]

tries to understand the interactions between the immune system, being the defence apparatus against ill making intruders or malfunctioning cells of an organism, the nervous system, controlling all body functions

Right. This is the part i'm after in relation to qiqong- 'body ruling mind or mind ruling body'? Maybe both?

FWIW- i'm not really trying to be clever or anything, just posing questions, seeing your thoughts, offering mine... i can't say what your practice might be or what you're after.

Too much of the QiGong i have been exposed to loses sight of the goal in favor of the ritual (ie: forms, mudras, visualizations, etc...)

This is one of the problems with a lot of qiqong, yep. Maybe not rituals/traditions per se, but losing sight of goals, yes! Thats why I'm writing this at all...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thanks for provoking contemplation.. it is refreshing..

I lean toward continuum.. but, that's my physics background.. yet, it seems that there is interdependence at every level (yin/yang).. i sense that transformation hints of intentional while transcendence may occur spontaneously.. ultimately, i sense we are One thing behaving many ways, thus the tendency toward continuum..

A cohort of mine once said "we exist in a 3 dimensional matrix where consciousness, opportunity and possibility intersect".. i still ponder the implications.. At the root of the issue J. Krishnamurthy asks, "are we what we think we are, or.. are we that which does the thinking".. that circular question still drives me mad.. Another quote that i like is "choice and deed are born of situations.. intent, however, is a signature of the soul"..

As for Qigong, it seems to transcend all levels of existence.. it exists regardless of awareness or intent.. we can only enhance or degrade its usefulness..

Of course this is only my own opinion.. Be well..

[ZIM]

ultimately, i sense we are One thing behaving many ways, thus the tendency toward continuum..

Isn't that cool? I'm getting the idea that you come from a buddhist perspective, even if not actually buddhist. One of the cool things i ran across in this was the story of the Panchen Lama's various incarnations- in that, it seems there were times when the same incarnation was present in more than one body at the same time. To make that possible, it'd have to be "One thing behaving many ways"

A cohort of mine once said "we exist in a 3 dimensional matrix where consciousness, opportunity and possibility intersect".. i still ponder the implications.. At the root of the issue J. Krishnamurthy asks, "are we what we think we are, or.. are we that which does the thinking".. that circular question still drives me mad.. Another quote that i like is "choice and deed are born of situations.. intent, however, is a signature of the soul"..

These, I'm liking muchly!

transcendence may occur spontaneously..

This is the heart of Zen awakening, IMHO, and that is why I'm noting differences.. ultimately, they are of one piece, but methods may be different. Mixing it up may not be a good thing... "Clarity!" shouts the monk...

[dwid]

"are we what we think we are, or.. are we that which does the thinking"..

It seems that the essence of much of zen points toward the latter. So much of zen practice is about trying to shine a light on the self that observes (IMHO).