A serious question(for research purposes)

[The Willow Sword]

What determines what IS shaolin kung-fu as opposed to what is NOT shaolin kung-fu? there have been some real heated debates on whats what with respect to shaolin kung-fu and shaolin-do kung fu. there is a saying that "THose who tell,dont know. and those who dont tell, know". i dont really know what to really think about all of this. For years Shaolin-do and grandmaster Sin has gotten a bad rap. Everywhere you turn there is something to say about shaolin-do's authenticity and the lineage of Grandamster Sin.
and yet this school has survived through all of it. from the late 60's is when the school started.
"a tribes greatness is measured by how many and mighty their enemies be" an old indian saying. WHAT, in effect HAS been PROVED OR DISPROVED(tangibley and with documentation) about the shaolin-do school,,,,,lets put all ego aside and be practical and objective about this discussion for i do not want this to become another BASH fest on schools and what they teach or claim. so if your intent is to say "this school sucks" or "SIN The' is a fraud" or "i dont believe the lineage is true" then please do not taint this discussion with that prattle. OPINIONS matter but what i am looking for is FACT. Not common sense opinions for they have proven to be invalid in a lot of discussions about this subject. i open the FORUM to a peaceful and intelligent discussion about these matters which i have written in hopes that i can and others can make a sound decision about this school and all the publicity it gets from this forum. "theres no such thing as bad publicity". with that in mind.
lets utilize our skills of PROPER communication and discuss this. my replies to this will be like questions to you about why yuou feel the way you do,,i am writing a research document about this.
again i state to you all,,ive heard all of the BASHING and INSULTS about the shaolin-do school okay. i have heard you its been recorded,,so now lets go onto the tangible reasons why we all feel the way we do about this one school...... thankyou

[Radhnoti]

I'd like to ask for a bit of clarification here...is the question:
"What determines what IS shaolin kung-fu as opposed to what is NOT shaolin kung-fu? "
Or:
"the tangible reasons why we all feel the way we do about this one school" meaning Shaolin-Do?
I'm assuming this is a thread opened specifically to debate the pros and cons of Shaolin-Do (which as I understand it is against the policy of this forum...but when has that ever stopped anyone? :rolleyes: ), but let me know if you're looking for something else. I actually may have something interesting to share that I ran into...
might surprise a person or two. :D

-Radhnoti

[Kumkuat]

I don't know if Shaolin do is authentic shaolin or not, but they are definately not internal. They should get rid of their internal program because their students, instructors, and even masters are not internal at all. I seen them give a demo where I live, and when I saw the Xingyi demo and saw a long fist punch (thinking it's Xingyi) done with pure muscle, I groaned. Not to mention the obvious arm muscle usage during the taiji demonstration.

Other than that, I don't know if shaolin do is shaolin kung fu. But I do know that they are definately not internal. Sorry for being off topic.

[shaolinboxer]

After researching and pondering this question for a few years, I believe that "Shaolin Kung Fu" cannot be used to describe any particular set of techniques. Rather, it indicates a standard of proficiency and dedication. The many masters of shaolin, if there are such masters, all have their own unique ways of teaching and their own ways about approaching martial arts.

Prime example:

Li Peng says all of his students must learn the application of the forms.

Yan Ming says applications don't work and are a waste of time.

Every master creates his/her own style. That's one vital component of "mastery".

[The Willow Sword]

There is a couple of questions here. one is the question that i posed at the beginning of my post. this question relates to the SHaolin-Do school. also there is a
question that makes a statement based on the opinions and views expressed about this school. i want to be able to compare the answers i get fron the first question with the FACTS i recieve about the SHaolin-Do School. then i, as well as others, will be able to make a sound judgement without bashing the school,about the school. i hope this clarifies what i am attempting to figure out.
so that there are no suspicions about me,
YES i am a disciple of the SHaolin-do school.
i am not thinking of leaving that realm,nor am i wanting to provoke a fight with anyone. i really truely want to understand this animosity and contempt. i always fear asking grandmaster sin about this for i do not want to make it seem like i am disrespecting him(for i am not) i have met the man, i know what he is about(in my mind). so with that being out on the open i want to now be an objective reader here and get evryones views as stated in my first post. MAny respects,,,,,,the willow sword

[BeiKongHui]

While I wouldn't want to guess what makes Kung Fu shaolin or non-shaolin I like most other martial artists can assure you that that is a moot question as far as Shaolin Do is concerned. Why? Because plain and simple Shaolin Do is not a Chinese martial art. I've seen Shaolin Do artists who trained directly under The'-they were most unimpressive and displayed only the lowest level of skill. I've seen Sin The', Bill Leonard, and other masters and have not been impressed by their supposed abilities nor by the parlor tricks they perform to amaze the unsuspecting. And yes...I have sparred and fought their students and found them quite easy to defeat due to the unrealistic training methods and lack of understanding of basics. In fact I've seen students of other martial arts with only a year or so of training easily dispatch Shaolin Do black belts. I suppose if you have no prior training or don't know what to look for they fool you, but ask any (non-SD) martial artists whose been around and the answer's always going to be the same. Of course no amount of evidence can convince a Shaolin Do cultist of reality but in closing I'll say I've been involved in some form of martial arts for 16 years...I've trained in or know someone who has trained in Wing Chun, Karate, Aikido, Brazillian Jui Jitsu, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, Kali, Hung Gar, Long Fist, Preying Mantis, XingYi, Taiji, Sambo, Wrestling, boxing, Judo, Contemporary WuShu, etc and one thing they all have in common is a profound belief that Shaolin Do is not a legitimate martial art. As for me I believe it's for "weekend warriors" not those who take martial arts seriously.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[The Willow Sword]

What , in your opinion, is a "legitimate Martial art"? this is not to contest your views about the subject. i would like to know.
Many Respects,,willow sword

[Shaolindynasty]

Willow sword in a previous post you told me your style was 108 step. Now it's Shaolin Do what's going on?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com

[The Willow Sword]

i stated that the techniques i have studied are a revised version of the 108 steps,,we have 30 of these steps combined with each other. yes i am of shaolin-do,,will this be a problem for you to continue disscussion,,or have i already been discredited in your mind,,,,i hope not.
MANY RESPECTS,,WILLOW SWORD

[joedoe]

Based on the clips I saw of Shaolin Do (I haven't seen any Shaolin Do schools in Oz yet), it looked nothing like any Shaolin style I have ever seen. Maybe it was the guy doing the demos, or maybe it is the style, but it didn't even look like a CMA let alone Shaolin.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[Brad]

Most people's major problem with Sin The is they feel he has lied outright about his MA background. I think you'll have a hard time doing any legetimate research on Shaolin Do, without coming to quite a few negative conclusions about the school and teacher. As to what determines what is Shaolin kungfu and what isn't, the most basic requirement is it has to has to be Chinese(kungfu). You say it's survived but that's not a good reason to judge authenticity on. Chung Moo Doe is still around and it's a recognized cult!

[Radhnoti]

First off, nice to have you aboard TWS...I've been "carrying the torch" so to speak for two or three of the shaolin-do threads.
I'd mentioned before that someone I'd read about had an article that was pretty interesting and others here might want to see it. Before posting portions, I'd like to say that I DON'T know that what this persons says is true IS true. I've e-mailed him multiple times asking for copys but he's never answered. He claims to be a 2nd black once in Shaolin-Do who's now gone over to Master Hiang's style (same thing different brother :D ) As soon as possible, I intend to go to Grandmaster Sin's gym in Lexington and inquire as to whether I could see his 10th black certificate...and perhaps the 5th.
Now with no further ado, SUPPOSEDLY portions of Grandmaster Sin's letter from Grandmaster Ie on the occasion of his receiving his 10th blackbelt:

"Master Ie Chang Ming’s Letter to Sin The’: I was born in love with Wu Shu (martial arts or kung fu). In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory. Now I am presenting you this level ten black belt with red honor strip, on behalf of all the colleagues in this gang. I wish you strictly keep all the rule, and develop the spirit of martial arts. This is what I want to say to you today. Do your best! To My Grandson and Disciple, Sin Kwan, Iron Palm Master Postscript: The three self-defending treasures, which have been with me through my living from place to place, are the Jade Smoking Stick, Drunk Man’s Crutch, and Ancient Money Shaped Son-Mother Biao (a dart like weapon). These three things look like necessaries for common travelers. Nobody will ever pay attention to them. Actually, you never know how powerful they are when you are in danger. They are my precious treasures. But I am already over seventy years old, and I decided not to use these weapons for a long time. Now, I give these to you as gifts. I wish you use them well and keep them properly. About “Biao”, you are better not to use it, because “Biao” is very easy to hurt people, and it is hard to control its direction, and also hard to get it back when you throw it out. So be very careful to it, especially that Son-Mother Baio, and never try to throw it out. Please keep in mind!!! Please!!! "

Now here SUPPOSEDLY is another certificate of advancement that Grandmaster Sin has shown others:

" Sin The’s 5th Degree Black Graduation Certificate Mr. Sin Kwan The’, of the Fu-Chin county, Fukien province, China, age 20, has been studying at our school for ten years. He has finished the three levels of courses as follows: 1) 1954-1955, basic course, earned Blackbelt, 1st level. 2) 1956-1958, middle course, earned Blackbelt, 3rd level. 3) 1959-1963, advanced course, earned Blackbelt, 5th level. He also studied 1) Golden Snake kung fu 2)Cyclone leg kung fu 3)Iron Finger kung fu. His kung fu was excellent and got championship awards from the kung fu contests at our school. He was honored with the best kung fu. This certificate was issued by Chung-Yen Shaolin Kung Fu School. School Master: Ie Chang Ming January 15th, 1964"

The final physical evidence that this person CLAIMS to have is a photo:

"Sin The’ claims that Master Ie died in 1976 throughout the book. But Master Hiang says he died in 1968. Master Hiang says he was even a paw bearer in the funeral, and that he left for the US, after Master Ie died (Master Hiang came to the US in 1968). Well, if Master Hiang’s word is not enough, a photo was taken of Master Ie’s tombstone by a man named Larry Hill, and guess what.....the date of death says 1968"

The person that posted this article claims that the letter AND the certificates are displayed in Grandmaster Sin's main gym in Lexington. The fellow who wrote this carries ON and ON about the differences between what these articles say and what Grandmaster Sin's book says. Dates, numbers of katas, etc. To tell the truth I only cared about ONE difference, and he never even mentioned it. Grandmaster Ie calls his school "Chung-Yen Shaolin Kung Fu School". I thought Grandmaster Ie changed the name to Shaolin-Do to avoid complications in Indonesia? The only way I can rationalize this would be that MAYBE the general public knew it as Shaolin-Do and the trusted students knew it as Chung-Yen Shaolin. Regardless, I feel this should have been mentioned...at least in the history section of his book.
Personally, I am VERY happy with my instructor AND with Shaolin-Do as a style. I believe that Grandmaster Su passed the title to Grandmaster Ie, who then passed the title to Grandmaster Sin.
I've greatly improved my fighting ability and feel healthier and happier then I've ever been in my life. I'm reading Adam Hsu's book right now, in it he defines the characteristics that he believes all Chinese martial arts share. Shaolin-Do (as I have been taught) meets or surpasses all the criteria he sets forth in his book. More importantly, it helps me improve myself and WORKS FOR ME...which is the best measure of a system in my honest opinion.
If anyone is interested I'll post what the author of the article considered to be Grandmaster Sin's inconsistancies. This may seem an odd thing to do when you note that I'm a SUPPORTER of Grandmaster Sin...but I feel that only exposing every angle from which people can attack will satisfy Grandmaster Sin's critics.

-Radhnoti

[GeneChing]

From my position, I see all sorts of martial artists and masters - all levels, all claims, all styles, all the time. I try to remain non-judgemental, since that is not only a good business philosophy, it is my personal view as a Zennist. So with this in mind, let's address the original quesiont a bit...

So what is Shaolin Kungfu vs. non-Shaolin Kungfu? Shaolin is just a name, we shouldn't be attached to it. Certainly we can go into a discussion of technical characteristics, but after so many centuries and so many variations, it's gets to be really muddy really quickly. Many get really possessive of the Shaolin name. I began my shaolin journey with Bak Sil Lum, which looks different than Songshan Shaolin and Shaolin-do. That doesn't bother me at all - in fact I celebrate it.

But, just like the popularization of Buddhism and Yoga now, it gets watered down as it reaches the masses. There is a natural reaction from the dedicated long-time students to say "that's watered down, it's not real" but this is a myopic stance. Who really knows how much water has been added and when?

Popularization of the teachings is great, in fact that's what it's all about. It has to be spoon fed at first, so don't begrudge the young for needing a little water to cut their drink. The biggest master you ever did see was once a baby. Popularization widens the breadth of our pool so we can go deeper. The role of dedicated long-time student is not to be critical of newbie nibblers. Our role is to go deeper. If we fail in that role, there is nothing more we can say.

As for Sin Te, all you need to be a valid teacher is students, and he certainly has those. As for the question of whether his material is real shaolin, well, read above. I was there when he demosntrated at Shaolin Temple, it was very amusing. I also find it amuzing, especially after all the attention he gets on this forum, that his name is Sin. But what's in a name? We shouldn't be attached to it. ;)

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

[The Willow Sword]

These are very good posts and i thank you for the information and opinions expressed,,EXCEPT for the "dagger hidden in shirt" insult to GM Sin The's first name. that is not something that is recognized by me as respectful..anyway with that said. let me ask rad and gene a couple of questions. RAD: these letters are very intriging. and i am glad that SD works for you. AS
one who has been in the SD school for a while, when you read these posts that speak out against the SD school, does it bar your progress in your training? also, what are your feelings about OTHER schools,in general?

GENE: as an assistant publisher for the kungfu amagazine. being that SIN The' gets alot of attention here,,have you or your people,at the magazine ever considered interviewing him about his school and what he teaches, his history and posing the questions to him that everyone seems to want to pose?

Many respects,,,,willow sword

[Shaolindynasty]

Willow sword- No I will continue to dicuss martial arts with you even though your style is shaolin do, I am in no position to judge anyone else it seems there is some controversy about me too(check ou the "sifus when are they of age" thread). I was just confused. I never have actually seen footage or a performance of Shaolin Do other than a short video on the internet. Willow Sword I would still be interested in trading videos of our styles it would be interesting. Email me if your interested. Are you from KY too there seems to be alot of shaolin do there. Actually my grandparents live in Murry(spelling?)KY maybe I should pay them and shaolin do a visit and see what it is all about.

Gene- What do you mean by it was amusing when he performed at Shaolin? What happened?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com