Training with Monks why does it matter?

[kungfudork]

willow sword,
who proved that all the monks are wushu atheletes dressed up. i stayed at shaolin for over a month in 1996, and there are more than 10,000 students training in a square mile area. there are many different schools that are all associated with shaolin, some former monks, some disciples of monks, some are families that have lived in this area for decades(pre-1928). i do agree that not everyone dressed as a monk in shaolin village is one. many times you see students at some of these schools dressed as monks doing demonstrations and such on their school grounds. these people don't just walk around dressed like this all the time and they don't walk around inside the temple dressed like this either. some of these schools put on tours and claim to be monks, but usually are not, they just come from shaolin village. but as for the monks that live and train inside the temple, they are real monks and some practice more kungfu than others and some practice more buddhism than kungfu. my sifu said he only spent about 2-3 hours a day studying with his buddhist teacher(who didn't practice kungfu) and spent about 8 hours a day training his kungfu. the monks who perform and train foreigners at the wushu quan are from the temple, not from the other schools in the area. usually the way the monks at the temple are chosen is by being a student of a current monk. i believe one of the reasons abbot shi yong xin is trying to clean up the area is partly because of the misconception of who is a monk and who isn't. imagine trying to control thousands of people in such a small area, so the best way is to make them leave(i guess). as for the monks who are in the states, they are all from the temple....not from a school in the village. so to say it has been proven that they are all wushu athletes is just an impossible fact.
willow sword, are you in the houston area. come join our morning adult class with shi xing hao and tell me that i am learning contemporary wushu. we only learn traditional shaolin in this class, the contemporary wushu is a seperate night class. i have done both classes and there is a huge difference between the two. so for you to claim my teacher is only a contemporary wushu athlete, is a big misconception on your part. come down and see for yourself, if you still feel the same way then i will respect your opinion, but until you have met and trained with one of these monks i don't feel you have the knowledge/experience to discredit them. don't just group all the monks and people in shaolin village together. they are all individuals with all different levels of shaolin kungfu. it would be like me assuming you and reemul are the same type of person because you both discredit the monks, that would just be an immature concept on my part. so judge these people as individuals after you have some experience with them, not just clump them all together in a prejudice way.
respect to all,
dieter wagner
kungfu****@kungfu****.com

[reemul]

>>Challenges go down at Shaolin a lot. They are tried and tested by fighters of all caliber, all the time. So it's very hard for me to believe that PRC kungfu is some charade after witnessing kungfu street fights, at Shaolin and all across China.

The question is not whether their kungfu is effective, the question is, are they the true inheiriters of Shaolin Kungfu, a brand of kungfu that spans hundreds of generations and benefitting from centuries of undiluted research and developement. Considerring what I have seen from them, I would have to say no.

When the communist government was taking over, the Shaolin temple was split as to whether the new government was going to interfere with the Temple. The masters for the most part were in agreement that the new government was going to interfere with the Shaolin temple. However some of the students felt otherwise. When it was found out that the promenant heads of the Shaolin family systems were on a hit list, the debate ended and the masters left the country. This is evident in that these systems no longer exist at the new PRC Shaolin Temple, thus ending the line of undiluted martial research at Shaolin temple. Jet Li testifies that on location at the temple during the filming of his movie "Shoalin Temple" that aside from a grounds keeper a cook and the abbot, the temple was pretty much abandoned, as it was said to be by our master. Occording to our master their were a few masters that stayed behind, but they were on lock down by the PRC. Between 1933-1970 No one went in or out. By the time people were showing up because of the success of Jet Li's movie, these guys were too old to teach the sum of their knowledge to fresh students, as Well the PRC came in, realizing this was a tourist trap, and rebuilt the temple with tourism in mind, not restoring it to what it once was.

To Kungfu**** (I don't know why they blanked your name the last time) but anyway. You don't know where I've been, You don't know what I've seen. As I have told you in the past our family history is guarded for the time being simply because with all the contraversy in the CMA community and the travesty of karate schools in the 70's changing their history and claiming to be kungfu due to the popularity of Bruce Lee, We would like to avoid theft of our material and history until we have a means of legally and effectively protecting what is ours. When that happens I will tell you guys everything and you can tell me how full of I am at that time. Some things I won't discuss simply because it's not my place. As for our master, he likes being anonymous and enjoys his privacy, so he will remain nameless.

[The Willow Sword]

YEAH YEAH!!! what REEMUL SAID kungfu****.
haha i dont think i mentioned your teacher in the postings,,i dont even know who you are. i apologize if i insulted your teacher and you,,,,that was not my intention. no i am not in the houston area i am a 20 yr austinite living in
new mexico now but i have been to the grand ole toilet that is houston. sorry to say but houston is a humid hot polluted babylon....woo am i raving? goodness gracious me,,im sorry. uhh what you guys do at your school is fine with me i have no judgement about it. so you stayed at the temple. did you like the televisions they had there in the rooms? i remember the bruce lee movie enter the dragon,,on han's island no one was allowed out after dark,,was it like that there? im sorry i am being a **** as well,,ill stop,,,,,,Many respects,, willow sword :rolleyes:

[HuangKaiVun]

Geneching and kungfu****, you guys have actually TRAINED with Shaolin monks and thus are the authorities on this.

I know one thing: Any kung fu man or sifu who goes out to degrade other styles is NOT WORTHY of the Shaolin moniker.

I applaud the Shaolin monks and their disciples Geneching and kungfu**** for demonstrating the restraint and respect that is exemplary of the name "Shaolin".

[The Willow Sword]

:rolleyes:

[reemul]

huh? I don't recall being insulted, at least what I consider to be an insult. I'm not in houston either I'm in Austin.

[reemul]

You have strange logic. You name Gene and Kungfu **** as authorities of Shaolin kungfu haveing been there in recent years, then what do you consider someone whos father and Grandfather where not only there but head of the respective system. Someone who studied his whole life keeping his heritage alive living in exile due to the PRC trying to kill his family. These men were at Shaolin long before any of these new age monks and yet you discount their acounts of what took place. Your pathetic.

[GeneChing]

radhnoti: Calling our gov't a republic is by no means disrespectful to me. I might call it a conspiracy :p

As for post fascination, this real vs. fake shaolin thing is continual debate, especially here in the ethnocentric USA. Personally, I think it's our lack of a long history that makes Americans fail to understand countries with really long histories. I have yet to see anyone maintain this fake monk stance when face-to-face with shaolin monk.

willow sword: Let's drop the whole thai monk thing since its not really relevant. I find them to be sweet too, but certainly no purer than the monks of shaolin.

Why do you beleive it impossible for shaolin to exist under communism? It has survived much worse - look at the oppression it took under the dynasties like the late Tang or early Qing.

I live right next to Oakland and sit on the advisory board of a free medical clinic. Many of my associates work at Highland ER - the frontlines if you will. The difference is guns. Street fights are everywhere, no doubt, but they are different at shaolin - flying kicks, chin na, ancient weapons - it's straight out of a shaw bro pic. Anyway, next time you're in Oakland, drop on by with that 10K and we'll be smiles and hugs. :D

Actually, and I mean this in earnest to everyone here, if you are ever in our neighborhood, do stop by the Kungfu Qigong Magazine office. It's always great to meet our readers.

reemul: Shaolin has always had an difficult relationship with the gov't of China, even before communism. That was a point of my SSSL vs. BSL article. It's true that many masters fled, but many stayed too. Mind you, getting out of China has never been easy. Not all of the masters had the capability to leave. Some hid on Songshan. Some went home. The temple was abandoned but the lineages remained, both in the PRC and abroad.

I have never been quite sure where this whole 'fake shaolin' thing arose, but perhaps it is from some of those non-prc masters feeling left out. I suppose if I were teaching BSL and a monk moved in next door teaching SSSL, I would feel threatened. I assure you that the monks respect those masters just as much as each other, and welcome them to help further their research and share teachings. There are certainly fake monks, just as there are fake masters here, but there are many real monks too.

One often unspoken factor ourside PRC is the kungfu ban around the CR. It was selective. Many masters taught the military and police, so they escaped the ban. Their practice was merely overlooked. In PRC, it's all about guanxi, and many monks had powerful guanxi. They still do.

I'm not sure I understand your dates - 1970 was Deng's Open Door policy, but 1933 was what? Chiang's Scorched earth policy? That was in Jiangxi two provinces away from Henan so I'm unclear how that affected Shaolin.

kungfu****: willow sword is right. Houston is hell. I wouldn't call it babylon, myself, it's more like one of the lower cesspool pits. I hope our Bush-run republic doesn't head that direction.

But lotuses can emerge from muck
So good luck

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

[The Willow Sword]

i enjoy our dialogue. Yes i must apologize for my rantings about the shaolin monks at the shaolin temple....it seems contradictory considering what my school has to put up with.
i am a typical american in certain respects and also i am a realist to an extent as well. i like to speak out ,at times, about governments and dictatorships that do not work or make a country not prosper ie;PRC,in my opinion. Man i wish i had 10k in my pocket ,,i would buy advertising space with you guys for my school i am about to open up in Taos nm. (it will be SD affiliated,,but i will be teaching the internal systems to which i have dedicated my life to now).
we both know alot about buddhism and chan buddhism and alot of "isms". so iguess lets just leave it at that.
also i am not really into "flash and dash" looks with respects to martial arts,,that is why i like SD..it has forms that are great,in my opinion,but it also has that pugilistic karate aspect to it that i like as well....ive always tried to keep a balance with the internal/external aspects of everything. to me, that is what SD is,,,,but anyway back on the subject of the shaolin monks,,,,,be there true MOnks at the temple, i pray for them as i do everything that is oppressed in this world that they are able to, despite the tyranny and tourist clap jap they are engrossed in, prosper and live a long and happy life.
MAny respects ,,,willow sword

[diego]

but i have seen and bin thru this discussion elsewhere......

Bhuddism is an art of insight,only viewed in realtime......many characteristics,many faces...

if won has not experianced bhuddism won really shouldnt argue on whats bhuddhist

if you knew bhuddist you would understand and there would be no way of communicating

now if yanming was a fraud whatever

but as an mc when i start to analyze individuals my intuition gets all judgmental and i start slight visualizing flavors of viewed characteristics......scientifically
bhuddism is do what u want just dont harm innosence.........now you need to understand all theorys tao yin/yang etc... stop looking at it as some form of divinty
and see it is simply a truth worn in precise ages of human history.........thats it really simple.


now bhuddism is friendly sayings to biuld heart

so if yanming does drink maybe eat a burger when in roam......doesnt matter does he have heart

:cool:

[diego]

basically what i want to know is to those who say shaolin chan kungfu from pre 1928 is impossible under the prc.

what is pre1928shaolin
could you explian

[ElPietro]

Hey, new to this forum but not martial arts. As expected it seems like everyone is at each others throats as far as what is factual or not and making huge generalizations.

When mentioning Shaolin Monks, what does it take to become a shaolin Monk first of all? Today's standards are nothing like the past. Traditionally a Shaolin monk would have to go through some life threatening tests as a rite of passage. I seriously doubt this is practiced anywhere in the world anymore.

Going to China to train at a shaolin temple I don't see as anything more beneficial versus training anywhere else in the world. Shaolin temples have been converted into tourist sites where the monks teach kung fu, and sell dim sum on their spare time. And generally they aren't monks, just wearing orange robes.

If you speak of traditional Shaolin Monks, I think that there are probably more of them spread across the world versus mainland china. As stated above the government would seek to eradicate all Shaolin priests that wouldn't agree to work with their armies. So they either fled china, went into deep hiding or semi-cooperated or were killed.

I train in what is called Shaolin Temple Kung Fu but I can't honestly say that the art I train in is true shaolin or not. Other than as a history lesson I see very little point in arguing about this topic. If what you're learning is useful to you and helps you achieve your goals who cares what it's called, who invented it, or where it comes from.

[GeneChing]

willow sword: Thanks for the apology - it wasn't necessary.

PRC certainly has it's problems, but so does any gov't including ours (especially lately!) I would say that China has always been difficult to govern, and given it's pre-PRC state, communism was an improvement.

Good luck w/your school. 10K would have given you a lot of ad space here, but in lieu of that, you might consider just carrying our magazine - distributors get a listing and it only costs $16.00+S&H w/your good account. That means you only have to sell 4 issues to break even. Contact 1-800-604-3332 if you are interested.

diego: I think we've all seen this discussion elsewhere. But here's a warning for you - the chan/zen path is very treacherous when viewed as you have stated. Look how it influenced Nazism and Japan during WWII. As the vipassana practitioners say of us zennists "zen is a great method - too bad it's amoral."

1928 was a big turning point in China when the Nationalists took Beijing. Check out my article in our e-zine on Shaolin vs. Bak Sil Lum for some historical context.

el pietro: Welcome to the forum.

The entrance to the Shaolin order is simple - be accepted by the order. Life threatening tests are somewhat mythological (and actually used for the exit not the entrance to Shaolin - at least according to legend.) To be accepted as a monk at Shaolin is the same as any Buddhist temple. Abbot Yongxin is pushing for graduation from Buddhist college as a further requirement - not sure if it has happened yet.

Going to Shaolin is beneifical for two reasons. 1st is the people - it is the largest martial community in the world w/tens of thousands of practitioners in the area. With that large a base, the apex can go much higher. These are full time martial artists. All they do is practice, so they get pretty good. 2nd is the mountain - Songshan is spectacular - the central sacred mountain of China. There is an amazing power and majesty to that mountain. It's beuaty is truly inspirational.

As for Shaolin monks outside of China, there is probably about 1 or 2 dozen only, compared to an order of 100-200 + 50-100 wuseng. This doesn't count those who have renounced their vows. In the USA there are 7 plus 1 renouced.

And I agree with your last part - what's in a name?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

[diego]

- the chan/zen path is very treacherous when viewed as you have stated. Look how it influenced Nazism and Japan during WWII. As the vipassana practitioners say of us zennists "zen is a great method - too bad it's amoral."


I CAN SEE THAT; like you might think all wonderful but in times of real fiath you could falter on the simple basis of oh its all just infinite etc. definatly bin around that!!!!

I can get a basic idea of what you meant on the japanese and ww2---what i think you meant was The
japanese viewed thier emperor as son of god type figurine...zen is the religion??or ideologie of japan in ww2 ""not to clear on that"""but if im right then they would be like oh we are the universes best gold the rest is dirt lets reformate""""""""'like the crusades of the catholik"""

my history is not to good;i do know hitler was like oh im a ugly half jewish/german individual
pompous vegetarian who loves pastries into black magic and obviosly lovn the scent of the abomb invention

so he and they are twisted hes this little pudgy dark hiared ????? whos all rep the blueyed blond race???????????any way a little die'gression its all in the name!!!!!!!!!!

so was the nazi using zen concepts im kinda lost on that.

sidenote------gene u also study sunlutang right?

was he into the plum blossom poles,i am suddenly all week bin very curios about all the variable individuals who partook in that study

TAKE CARE

:D ;)

[Brad]

Gene,

If you want to know where most people get the idea that the monks don't know real Shaolin kungfu, just take a look at some of the "documentaries" like "Shaolin Kungfu", and "Dragons of the Orient". They have monks performing bad compulsory wushu, cheap parlor tricks, and hokey staged fights. Then there's also the phoney tours going around.