Sifus, When are they of age?

[Shaolindynasty]

I'll start by telling you guys my story and why this interests me. I am a young Sifu (19yrs old) and find people don't take me seriously. I have been an instructor for the past year under my Sifu but now am trying to start my own classes. I find that alot of martial artists don't take me seriously or believe I am for real until I demonstrate my abilities. I have been training in Shaolin kungfu for 5 yrs and I can understand that people think this is a short time but it was full time(if you think about it it is the eqivalent of collage with hands on exerience) and also have taken chinese medicine and acupressure classes. People seem to be more comfortable with a Tang Soo Do sensei (we have 3 in town) that is between 30 and 40 years old and with 25-30 yrs of experince even though they are bad martial artists. Anyways what do you guys think is a reasonable age and time of experience for a Sifu to start teaching on his own?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com

[joedoe]

Totally off topic, but I think the term sifu tends to generate some confusion. To some people, it merely means an instructor or teacher, while to others it means someone who has mastered the art they are teaching.

I can accept someone being an instructor in 5 years, but IMHO there are very few people who could truly master an art in 5 years.

It is hard to get credibility as a young teacher of the martial arts simply because people have a preconceived notion of what a martial arts teacher should be like. They should be experienced and wise etc. on top of being proficient in their art. Maybe it is hard for people to accept that you have the experience and wisdom to truly hold the title of sifu.

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What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[The Willow Sword]

i have talked to a number of young chinese men and women about that very title. as always we americans trivialize THIS as well or we put it into a light that blinds. simply put from them.
sifu is a mentor, a father figure, a teacher.
someone with whom you admire and trust to teach you. a sifu is part of all the students families he teaches. it is not to signify rank or an accomplishment. there you have it.

[WenJin]

If a student comes to you with problems such as of marital, of bringing up children, social, pyschological, medical, etcc......can you help them? If not you are a good martial artist and should be named instuctor/coach/teacher until you are of age (no specific age) and experienced in life upon which in time should your skill as a person develop you may be inferred to as sifu and you would have earned and be given the title by others rather than yourself and by qualification. Not to mention that 5 years is not usually sufficient time, most teachers usually have studied for at least 10 years with the average of a starting teacher being around 15yrs.

[joedoe]

I don't want to sound like I am putting down Americans, but every man and his dog over there calls themselves sifu. I was always brought up to believe that sifu was a very difficult title to earn, and that only a minute proportion of martial artists ever achieved it.

Don't get me wrong, heaps of people give themselves the title here in Australia too, but every time I have gone to international martial arts events, every American there seems to be a sifu. Maybe the standard of martial arts is very high over there, but I suspect that the title gets given out far too easily. Unfortunately, that is happening here in Oz too :(

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What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[CLFNole]

You can be an instructor at a school after 5 years, but a "real" sifu I don't think so. After 5 years of training I began to realized that I didn't know as much as I though (an I train & teach 5-6 days a week at my school). Being a sifu is not just about knowing forms or fighting applications it has a lot more important qualities. A sifu is generally looked to as a father figure and therefore takes on the responsibility of trying to mold his students into not only good martial artists but good people. It is hard for people to take a young sifu seriously because at 19 or 20 your not a man and later when your 30 or 40 you will realize this.

Don't be so eager to become a sifu let time take its natural course. Teach at your school for at least 5 years. During this time you can really sharpen your teaching skills so that when you reach an older age your kung fu level will be much higher.

Peace.

[shaolinboxer]

It doesn't matter how good you think your martial arts is. People come to you to learn, not to become involved in your kung fu master fantasy.

It is more important to be a good teacher. As a student, I don't care how good you punch is. All I care about is how you can help me learn to punch, and ensure that I have a good time learning it.

5 years practicing martial arts is nothing, and you are fooling yourself if you think you are "better" than someone with 25 years experience.

Remember that at 19, you're a kid. With five years experience, you are a beginner. To think you qualify as a sifu is just silly.

How do I know this? I've been in your situation and have learned a great deal about myself from it.

I would spend more time training than teaching, although we all need to learn to teach. Remember that it takes far longer to learn to teach well than it does to become proficient in the physical techniques. It also requires more life experience.

Being a sifu is like being the head of a company..you don't come out of undergrad and jump right to the top.

Your time will come. In about 10 or 15 years.

[Shaolindynasty]

Let me start by saying that I was not trying to brag about my skill level I know there are lots of people better than me. I was also not saying that I can lead students to the highest levels. If there is someone who can reach a higher level than me I will send them to my Sifu and I tell them this right off. I also did not create a style but am teaching exactly what I learned. In my school Sifu means instructor. I am a martial arts instructor. In order to teach martial arts I need to know only martial arts and related subjects not raising kids etc. If you need someone to talk to you about raising kids or whatever you shouldn't go to a martial arts class but find a friend. I know of plenty of Sifus that will argue that one for me (Adam Hsu for one). You can say that a sifu is "one who mastered his art" but the term Mastered cannot be clearly defined and this makes it impractical to give a title to. If this is how everyone defines sifu though I cannot go against the majority so I will call myself an insructor.

Lyle- A person CAN be better with only 5yrs experience than someone with 25. It comes down to the individual. If the person that trained 5yrs trained between 5- 8 hours a day and took the martial arts seriously and trained a good martial art and the person with 25yrs experence trained only two times a week for an hour each time then goes home and doesn't think about it again till next class. I make this point even though I never said I was better than everyone only those 3 "martial artists" in town that I was talking about. I never base my skill level on fantasy. This also helps me demonstrait a point that I recieve alot of disbelief and "bashing"(on forums anyway nobody ever seems to do this in town)when people here my age. They think I am some punk kid who watches too many movies. I can help my students learn to punch. My Sifu taught me how to do it and I know how to teach it to someone else. He besides teaching Kungfu to me, taught me how to teach he thought this was equally important. He also says that the only way to get better at teaching is to gain experience. He is always close by if I need help.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com

[shaolinboxer]

Your retort was just as I expected. I had the same argument.

In fact, I don't even disagree with you. But I have taken the time to step outside myself and view myself from the perspective of others. It is this perspective I meant to reveal in my post.

By keeping these harsh criticisms in mind, you can be a better teacher and become an even better martial artist.

Personally, I hope you find success in every way.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Your still young and it seems as though you are very cocky not to mention you are claming to be A Shaolin Sifu. All I ever read about Shaolin school is that they are surrounded in contraversy. Combine that with a young cocky Instructor? dude no wonder no one takes you seriously.

"Life's a great adventure, mate."
Jacko Jackson

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't feel cocky. I think all martial artists should have some level of confidence in their abilities. Shaolin schools are surrounded by controversy? Well, maybe the temple. Really I was just experimenting with this post. Your reactions were just as I expected. I noticed when I told you my age all of a sudden I am a fool, when before you guys knew how old I was you took my comments seriously. No offence to Austrailia but you guys seem to have attacked me the hardest. Maybe you just have alot of frauds down there.
Anyway, I find it interesting that you people seem affended by my age when some of the people you now consider to be great Sifus started just as young.
Tat Mau Wong
Lily Lau
Tai Yim
Lai Hung
Bruce Lee
I am not saying by any means that I have all the answers, actually that is part of being a sifu is knowing when you can't answer a question. I believe I honestly act in the best interests of my students and kung fu brothers and that is what is important to me. Being a young sifu is not impossible or a disgusting concept we all have to start some where and I don't beleive in waiting for some magical age where I will know everything because that age never comes. All the sifus I mentioned above say that they are still learning and that teaching others is the best experience they have had. Mastery is a process of continuous, evolution. I will help those I can now and hopefully I will be able to bring people to a higher level when I acheive that myself. I started this disscusion not as to question my ability to teach but what you thought of in majority about young sifus. My sifu says I am ready to teach our art so thats all the reasurance I need.

Lyle- I am unclear as to what your post means could you please clairify. When you say my reaction was no surprise was it in a good way? I noticed on your profile that you study with Shi Yan Ming that must be great! He has the best kungfu I have ever seen. How long have you been training with him?

On this thread lets all post our ages before the comment that would make our stances a little more clear and expose any personal biased we might have.

I am 19 and am pro young instructors as long as they teach a style that they didn't create and teach it thuroly

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com

[hasayfu]

Slow day on the southern forums so i'm lurking around here...

Many of the Sifu's from Hong Kong started their schools when they were 18-21. This is pretty normal in the old days. (Now a day, most sifu kids go into other business because MA is not that profitable).

Age has nothing to do with it. The most important thing is that you you get respect from your students. That isn't given to you by your age, lineage, or years of study. It's earned by your actions.

Sure it's harder for a young Sifu. Just like it's harder for a not so pretty lady to attract a mate then a pretty one. Not impossible and it doesn't devalue the person but the fact of life is that it will require more work.

As far as Sifu used in Chinese, it's a term of respect. If someone is willing to follow you, you are a Sifu. If someone sees you have mastery in a field, you are a sifu. While it's true that there is a Father/Child bond to the term, it doesn't mean that you are not a sifu if you can't tutor them in ALL aspects of life. For sure, the young hong kong sifu's had followers that were older then they were. That was common.

Finally, before start to validate yourself, what does your Sifu say? Has he given you permission to open your school? If so, then that should be enough for you. Now you have to put in the work.

[Shaolindynasty]

He has given me permission to teach on my own and it is enough for me this was just an experiment. He went as far as to offer me finacial help to get started(althoug I declined, I want to build it myself it will give me a greater sense of acomplishment). I also noticed it was pretty common for Hong Kong sifus to start young(examples in above post). This was also my deffinintion of a Sifu but I guess many people don't see it that way. So maybe I'll continue to tell my students to call me sifu but "officially" call myself an instructor(I don't want to cause alot of problems over something so trivial). Good to see someone on my side! Maybe this is more of a southern style thing.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com

[MonkeySlap Too]

I wouldn't woory yourself. I just kicked a student of mine out into the world, and at 22 with about 7 years of training, I'd put him up against 90% of the 'experts' out there.

Just train hard, train intelligently, be a good person, and train, train, train. Just avoid the ego trips.

You'll be fine. If you want to be called Sifu, and that is how you do it in your school, great. One thing you'll find in CMA is that no one agrees on anything.

Well, except for Shaolin Do is funny looking ;)

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[joedoe]

Sorry, don't see how Australia has attacked you the hardest. I am not sure of anyone else, but it looks like I am the only Australian who has responded, and I didn't intend my post to be an attack. I simply shared my views based on my experiences.

I have been in your situation and I know how hard it is. Trust me, I was 18 and only training for 4 years before I was given the responsibility of running a school. It is very daunting and yes it is hard to get credibility. All you can do is stick it out and build your credibility.

BTW yes we have our share of frauds, but probably no more or less than anywhere else.

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What we do in life echoes in Eternity