Which striking art to study?

[HuangKaiVun]

I can't imagine Morihei Ueshiba having any link whatsoever to Baguazhang.

If Ueshiba had really studied Bagua the way BK Frantzis claimed, then Aikido would've had a circle walk, Single/Double palm changes, and TONS of striking from all angles.


You can't have a reality based martial art without striking, and you can't have a reality based martial art without grappling.

You must have BOTH if you want to survive a real fight.

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks for the supporting comments Huang. I agree that a martial artist must have skill in both striking and grappling. Would you not also agree that a student might better serve the long term goals of self mastery and expert profieciency by aquiring a high level of skill in one system before attempting to learn another?

As an interesting side note, I read an interview with one of O-Sensei's disciples, T.K. Chiba, who asserted that the old Hombu dojo used to have makiwara in the garden where students would practice atemi. That's sort of a far cry from what you commonly see in Aikido today, but certainly shows that Aikido's striking techniques CAN be persued with the same dedication that other arts do. I'm interested in making makiwara, or at least heavy bag work a feature of my future practice.

[HuangKaiVun]

You're quite knowledgeable, Samurai Jack.

On the other hand, I believe that trying to master one style to the exclusion of others before trying others doesn't necessarily help in real fighting

Morihei Ueshiba never had to fight BJJ guys that would sprawl him, take him down, and try to apply a leglock on him while choking him. If he did, why didn't he talk about developing one's physical strength in the legs to withstand takedowns - or fight effectively from that position? There are other things to consider in grappling as well.

Hence no amount of traditional Aikido training would teach a person how to fight out of that position.

Nor would it save a woman who's ambushed in bed by an experienced rapist who knows exactly how to apply submission holds and the like.


By the way, I do not utilize heavy bags or makiwara in teaching my students.

We feel that it's better to develop things like throat grabs and groin slaps as opposed to toughening up one's calluses on a stationary object, especially in today's world where the average criminal will NOT go down simply because you punched him hard repeatedly.

[Laughing Cow]

HKV.

i would like to point out a few facts:

1.) When Ueshiba created Aikido there was NO BJJ as yet.
2.) What did exist was Judo & Jujitsu, both arts from which BJJ was derived.
3.) Kano and Ueshiba were friends and exchanged knowledge, Kano even send some of his own students to study under Ueshiba.

This clearly shows that Ueshiba was well aware of ground-fighting and even trained with some people versed in it.

So I don't know how you came to your conclussions about Ueshiba and lack of knowledge in newaza.

Cheers.

[HuangKaiVun]

I came to that conclusion because I have yet to see anything in Aikido that involves a forward moving assault.

Any true grappling style will, as a rule, introduce the concept of strong legs as a basic fundamental. A strong horse stance of some sort that can MOVE (among other power moves) is absolutely fundamental to excellence in grappling. Maybe aikido has that power training, but I've seen aikido on both sides of the American continent practiced by both Japanese and nonJapanese stylists and I have NEVER seen that except in fragments by some of the Nihon folks.

Also, any streetfighting method that really emphasizes reality combat will have a HUGE emphasis on strikes. A lot of the time, a strike is exactly what is needed to soften up an opponent in order to pull off the "big move" (or escape from one). Often, forward aggression is the best defense.

O-Sensei was able to practice aikido till the end of his days against some pretty big opponents. But what were they doing? If they were training to REALLY fight, O-Sensei would've been kicked and pummelled into little pieces on a daily basis (which is what happens to ME and I'm 29!) There's no way he could've withstood that kind of pounding even in a controlled situation - I know because I face it every day and I can barely keep up in the prime of my life!

And of the aikido guys I've known, not a single one I've met would've lasted two seconds against a hardened streetfighter. Maybe my experience is limited, but I've been around quite a bit and kung fu is my living. A good style should have many good fighters in it.

Defending against with a sword hand downward chop is one thing, facing a guy who resists your moves with his own grappling is another.

[Samurai Jack]

Quote:
"If they were training to REALLY fight, O-Sensei would've been kicked and pummelled into little pieces on a daily basis (which is what happens to ME and I'm 29!)"

Not trying to pick a fight here, but it seems unlikely to me that you're as good at 29 as O-Sensei was in his prime. By the time he was taking on challengers in his fifties he had been training for almost forty years. These weren't Mcdojo's he was training at either, but rather with some of the hardest fighters to be found in the world at that time. I understand that your opinion is based on your experiences NOW, but when you and I eventually achieve his level of skill, perhaps our viewpoint will be different.

Quote:
"And of the aikido guys I've known, not a single one I've met would've lasted two seconds against a hardened streetfighter. Maybe my experience is limited, but I've been around quite a bit and kung fu is my living. A good style should have many good fighters in it."

I'd like to think that I train at a hard core dojo, we certainly work hard but I am also aware that not all Aikido dojo's subscribe to hard, painful, and most importantly, realistic training.
Perhaps you have been privileged to have trained in a serious Kung Fu style, but you are also assuredly aware that Kung Fu as a whole has at least as shady a reputation as Aikido among pure self defense enthusiasts?

It dosen't prove anything of course, but if misconceptions exist about your art, surely they can exist about mine as well. I think most of the fault is due to misinterpretations of O-Sensei's spiritual philosophy in the later stages of Aikido's development.
Many people think Aikido is all about good feelings and hippy ki.

In my opinion, they miss the point that it was the hard work and pain of many years of arduous training that brought O-Sensei to a place where he could do things like fight people and not hurt them. Us lesser mortals must resort to grosser methods, but it behooves us to remember that victory over another person is nothing but a loss for our higher selves.

Just a thought.

[Merryprankster]

We feel that it's better to develop things like throat grabs and groin slaps as opposed to toughening up one's calluses on a stationary object, especially in today's world where the average criminal will NOT go down simply because you punched him hard repeatedly.

Heavy bags just teach you how to throw down with power. Your structure MUST be right to have any impact and to avoid hurting yourself, as compared to pad work or light bag work where you can get away with structural deficiencies. That's it. Good stuff as far as it goes, but it's just a tool like any other.

[HuangKaiVun]

You can't say that I'm NOT as good as O-sensei at age 29, since you have seen neither him nor me fight.

THAT would be a great fight, me against O-sensei in his prime. I'm not afraid to say that my money is on ME, and I don't care how disrespectful that sounds.

Remember that O-Sensei was a mere mortal like the rest of us, with flesh and bone that was no different from ours.

Nor was he trained to fight kung fu fighters of authentic combat lineage, else his art would've included hard chi gung training (Iron Body) and an extensive blocking system to deal with incoming strikes that come during grappling transitions (especially in a multiple opponent scenario).

Why do I state all this emphatically? Because I can SEE IT in his body, his muscles, his tendons, and his posture. There's no way he'd stand so erect with me (or my 200 lb+ students) pressing our bodies against his, especially since we'd be countering his moves with our own chin na as well as strikes and dirty tricks.

Because of the lack of attention to covering himself in transition, I find it very improbable that O-sensei studied kung fu or even faced hardened kung fu fighters in China, given that he didn't teach even a single kata that came from a Chinese art. After all, only a tiny fraction of the population in China then and now actually has studied kung fu, let alone used it to fight.

Notice how the Okinawan karate styles are littered with kata learned from kung fu that comes from Fuzhou and Fukien province? If O-sensei had even studied one day with a real competent kung fu man, why didn't he include solo set training in aikido? Solo kata training is the FOUNDATION of Chinese kung fu schooling.

And where's the medical theory that deals with the implications of grappling and striking, especially after the fight and the body is all broken?

If O-Sensei was dealing with regular heavy striking and grappling even in the practice session, he would HAVE to have worked on patching the body back together. In fact, he'd have to be constantly patching HIS body back together especially in his late years.

I'm constantly massaging out combat-inflicted cuts and bruises in the daily course of training in my school. "The Bubishi" goes into such things with great detail, much of which we use on a daily basis. After all, "The Bubishi" is actually the "Shaolin Bronze Man Book" of Seng Men (Monk Fist) , the combat art I learned from my Chinese sifu.


I am certainly aware that kung fu has a shady reputation, and that's why I fully believe your claim that your aikido is tough. Virtually none of the kung fu men I've met can fight experienced streetfighters either, so I agree with you there.

From the looks of your posts, your aikido is as serious as my kung fu is. I respect your art 100% and would be privileged to see it one day. I'm just saying that I haven't seen solid aikido yet just as you haven't seen solid kung fu yet. We are on the same page.

If you want to see what my "Seng Men" (Monk Fist) style looks like, read "The Bubishi". The "monk fist" set in the back of the book is virtually identical to the stuff we do, though we've got TONS more groundfighting than the book depicts.

[Samurai Jack]

Interesting stuff! Thanks for the information Huang.

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun

THAT would be a great fight, me against O-sensei in his prime. I'm not afraid to say that my money is on ME, and I don't care how disrespectful that sounds.

Remember that O-Sensei was a mere mortal like the rest of us, with flesh and bone that was no different from ours.

Nor was he trained to fight kung fu fighters of authentic combat lineage, else his art would've included hard chi gung training (Iron Body) and an extensive blocking system to deal with incoming strikes that come during grappling transitions (especially in a multiple opponent scenario).

Why do I state all this emphatically? Because I can SEE IT in his body, his muscles, his tendons, and his posture. There's no way he'd stand so erect with me (or my 200 lb+ students) pressing our bodies against his, especially since we'd be countering his moves with our own chin na as well as strikes and dirty tricks.

[greendragon]

HuangKV, I don't think you have a comprehensive picture of aikido. The circlular moves are there on three levels but they are dynamic and not static as kung fu is practised. We do not block, we harmonize and redirect like TaiChi. There is much striking practised as the roots of Aikido are in Daito Ryu. O Sensei was a bad a** hard fighter when he was young, maybe your age, but evolved into effortless power, as you will eventually. If you were to attack him it would sadden him to see you injure yourself. On the kung fu/ aikido connection, i think any similarities are coincidence from being based on natural movement.

[HuangKaiVun]

No blocks = no survival in real life encounters.

Don't believe me? Try fighting somebody outside of your style, especially if he knows anything about Western Boxing.

That holds true for O-Sensei too.

[bob10]

You mean you can use blocks against a good boxer?

[HuangKaiVun]

You mean that Lennox Lewis doesn't have to get his hands up to protect his head from getting broken in the ring?

If raising your arm to stop a punch isn't a "block," what would I call that?

Doubtless Ueshiba (or any aikido man) would "block" if he faced off against Lennox Lewis in the street.

[chokemaster]

I would check into Muay Thai, It is hard on the body at first.
Or if no MT try western boxing.

Great Thread on striking Arts.