Grappling Overrated

[Ng Mui]

Grappling is considered by many to be the Achilles heel of Wing Chun. So many WC students and WC styles try to supplement their art with ground tech.
I think this is unnecessary , because good Wing Chun does not need to go to the ground. If your opponent can get past the WC kicks, punches, elbows and knees to take you down, its not lack of grappling skills that lost the day, but lack of WC skills.
A Chinese teacher told me once that Americans know allot, but Master little. You can try to be a Jack of all trades or you can concentrate and perfect your Wing Chun. Grappling is just one of the fighting ranges, it is no better or worst.
It is part of a dying fad now. In the 60’s there was Karate, the 70’s Kung fu, the 80’s ninjujitsu, the 90’s Brazilian Jujitsu and next will be Krav Maga .
Wing Chun is enough, if you want to supplement your style, go to the shooting range.

[yuanfen]

Good points Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun would agree with you too.

Folks who see flaws in wing chun grappling have flaws in their own wing chun development. However, I dont blame those with pot holes in their path to try out mma because their paths/pot holes may not be fixable.And note: it doesnt hurt to experiment some. But if you learn good wing chun I think that you will find that many of the best
principles of other arts are already there in wing chun.,,properly understood.

Wing Chun was not developed to be effective against only wing chun. Good wing chun people I know have tested their preparation against other stylists.Wing chun when pursued well simply maximizes the use of the human body... and its "psychological" and internal principles teaches you to adjust to what is there.

If you dont learn to stand well and move well yes you can be taken down. If by sheer chance you fall or are taken down (gang or multiple attackers in some but not all cases)good
wing chun can bail you out on strikes, bars and chokes- and when you can- you can get up.

Wing chun is not technique based and prepares YOU for any encounter from any direction.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ng Mui
... if you want to supplement your style, go to the shooting range.

Seems we are of common mind and spirit on the gravity of the matter.

Regards,
- kj

[azwingchun]

I think this would depend on what group of WC people you are speaking about. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe any Wing Chun system has ground fighting such as maybe BJJ, but I am one of those people who believe that the stand-up training can be transferred to the ground.

I think if you believe that you can or will never be taken to the ground, then you are very naive. Yes, Wing Chun may be a great art, and some may even say that it is perfect, but you and I are still human. And let's not forget humans are not so perfect and make errors. I remember my Sifu telling me that if you followed all of Wing Chun's principles perfectly, you would never lose a fight. Right after that he said, the unfortunate side is humans make errors and aren't perfect. But, I understood his point.

Don't get me wrong, I am one of those people that believe through training hard, one can and will become better with their stand-up, and possibly need less ground work. But, to think they won't need it or can't be taken to the ground, I believe they will have a rude awakening if and when they come against a good grappler. Just my opinion though.

[Sho]

Originally posted by Ng Mui
A Chinese teacher told me once that Americans know allot, but Master little. You can try to be a Jack of all trades or you can concentrate and perfect your Wing Chun. Grappling is just one of the fighting ranges, it is no better or worst.

Knowing both stand-up fighting and ground work doesn't mean that you're a Jack of all trades. I believe you can focus on both ranges and master them quite flawlessly. Apparently there are systems which emphasize both stand-up fighting and grappling - so are you saying that no one can master a system like this? I agree with you that it's better to specialize in something rather than being a Jack of all trades, but knowing these two ranges isn't really that broad. My personal opinion is that one should know both of these ranges in order to safely be a well-rounded martial artist.

[captain]

ng,not so sure about krav maga [as karate,in hebrew]being
the next "big thing".ive just seen a mini docu about the style
on a tv programme in the uk.it was an utter mix of many
martial arts.from the wck class ive just had and the person
in the docu,it was nothing as sly and mean as wck.

as for the grapple thought,most people can study [properly]
two martial arts at a time,if you practice strike why not add
a grapple/ground?

[yuanfen]

captain- because wing chun is not just about striking.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ng Mui :

A Chinese teacher told you once that Americans know alot, but Master little......

That's BULL....!

Moy Yat used to try and sell that nonsense to his students during my 8 years at his school...

...and what it is ...is reverse rascism...that is an attempt to escape one's own feelings of inferiority...

In your case...the person who said that was trying to cover up the fact that he doesn't...KNOW HOW TO WRESTLE!

Don't buy into the poison ...

-Victor

[yuanfen]

C'mon. "American" is not a racial term, irrespective of the merits
of the observation.

[azwingchun]

Simply put, but very true.

[azwingchun]

You posted right before I did......causing me to explain now. LOL!

I was referring to your statement about Wing Chun not being just about striking.

[pseudoswitch]

People who dismiss grappling arts as unnecessary usually haven't trained in them for any appreciable amount of time. They should definatley not be overlooked IMO. Talk is cheap, but the proof is out there, a good grappler will more often than not be able to take down a striker. That can't be disputed. I think more of us should come to the realisation that WC and grappling arts don't have to be mutually exclusive. Learning BJJ groundfighting won't affect the way you do your WC, will it??? Similarly, there's no reason why you can't apply WC principles and techniques on the ground, in addition to grappling techniques, as and when appropriate.

Anyway, just some thoughts,

Regards,

pseudo

[Grendel]

Hi Pseudoswitch,

Originally posted by pseudoswitch
People who dismiss grappling arts as unnecessary usually haven't trained in them for any appreciable amount of time.

That's not true in my case. I'd say those who think they need to supplement Wing Chun with grappling don't have good Kung Fu. That's not necessarily their fault. It's hard to find, and when found, hard to learn.

They should definatley not be overlooked IMO. Talk is cheap, but the proof is out there, a good grappler will more often than not be able to take down a striker.

I don't know about a "striker," but a good skilled Wing Chun person, no, not likely. The grappler would never get in and take the punishment, IMHO. Good Wing Chun can make you fight as if you were 100 pounds heavier. If all else is equal and your opponent is 100 pounds heavier and you grapple with him, you will likely lose. Using Wing Chun, you may have a chance.

That can't be disputed.

Oops. LOL!

I think more of us should come to the realisation that WC and grappling arts don't have to be mutually exclusive. Learning BJJ groundfighting won't affect the way you do your WC, will it???

Yes it will.

Similarly, there's no reason why you can't apply WC principles and techniques on the ground, in addition to grappling techniques, as and when appropriate.

Except for the addition of "grappling techniques," I agree with this statement.

Anyway, just some thoughts,

It's good you're thinking.

I think that the only thing ever lacking in Wing Chun is good teachers with its complete understanding. I do see vulnerabilities to grappling attacks in most people's Wing Chun in lack of a good horse and lack of power in their strikes---two related problems.

Naturally if you let a grappler get you in a choke or successive arm bars, you're done if the grappler has a clue. Also, it is possible to retain some Wing Chun structure on the ground.

Regards,

[pseudoswitch]

Hi Grendel,

Which grappling art/s have you studied, and in what way does studying a grappling art interfere with one's WC training/performance?

[Martin Foot]

By rigorously & systematically examining & practising the application of the principles of your Martial Art to the environment you wish to master, whether you are standing upright, or “Grappling” on the floor, you will find the answers within the principles.

If it isn’t working for you at the moment, then with perseverance and further embodiment of those principles you will evolve beyond where you have been in violation of the systems principle criteria and therefore taken advantage of.

Ultimately it’s a fluid application of principles from which the techniques flows.

It’s all in there