Grappling Overrated

[Ultimatewingchun]

Come on...Yuanfen...You can do better than that!?

[yuanfen]

For money or for principle -yes.

Contrived scenarios are boring!
If this- then that- then what.....

[KenWingJitsu]

Are people still falling for this trollign tactic.

Should I say what I REALLY wanna say? lol.

Guys, please don't feed the trolls.

Trolls, please PROVE that your wing chun is enough to disable any grappling attacker and then you'll be believed. Leave your fairy tales to the internet forums............................................ ....oh wait sorry...you are.

lol

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Someone has attempted to take you down...but wait...to counter this you're using Long bridge energy, short bridge energy, both bridges...the Brooklyn Bridge, (did I tell you it's for sale?)... or perhaps, if you have already "wiped out" a bunch of wing chun "Masters" and "Sifus", and have gone through all of your sparring partners (like Grendel has)... you're now just kind of relaxing on the Golden Gate Bridge...

After all this - REALITY starts to take its inevitable toll upon your consciousness..."EXCUSE ME, BUT YOU'VE GOT AN APPOINTMENT BACK ON...PLANET...EARTH..?"

LOL! Nice to see some humor here.

EXACTLY

Wing Chun is not formulaic. It is impossible to predict what I would do. My response is to the energy I feel and the openings I see.

how - and I want DETAILS, not slogans or rhetoric...
you will use your WC (and ONLY your WC) to defend against the following scenario:

Your opponent is 6'2" tall, and weighs 210 lbs. - he's big, he's strong, he's a skilled fighter and he's TOUGH

Are you saying he's bigger and stronger than me? Yeah, that gives him a better chance. You gotta watch the big guys.

...(ie.- you won't knock him out with one strike (No...you didn't manage to get his eyes or his throat or his groin with your first shot...No...the astral body of neither Ng Mui nor Yim Wing Chun is next to you whispering instructions or sending you their love...)

He attacks with a boxers' tight (elbows close to the sides of his body) jab/cross combination...and the moment you start to engage his arms he covers up

I do Wing Chun, so some may not recognize this approach. If he attacks, that's perfect. If he's throwing jab/cross combos, I'd step in and clock him. As for engaging his arms, why would I do that other than to move them out of the way?

...pushes in

Nope. He can't push in if my Wing Chun is good. Let's be realistic.

...starts grabbing your arms

Gee, I've never had my arms grabbed before. What could Wing Chun possibly do in response? No looking at other's papers.

, thereby edging his body closer to you now... and goes into a head- inside double leg takedown if you were in a neutral stance...or a head-outside single leg if you were in a front stance...

By this time I've hit him at least three times. He's all but knocked out and staggers as he shoots in, his balance and center way off. I punch him a few more times and he just lays there. I drink his beer and chat up his woman.

I want to hear EXACTLY what your response is to this...?

There are just too many possibilities.

NEXT: He attacks with a lead leg (tight) roundhouse kick toward one of your legs if you're in a neutral stance or toward your lead leg if you're in a front stance...I assume you will lift a leg at this point...yes?

This is his opening? Where did this start? On a mat? LOL! I'd likely stomp his kick, but it would depend.

I appreciate what you are trying to do in this post, but it's just not that simple.

[mun hung]

In response to the original question - I think that some of the grappling arts are very good, but are DEFINITELY overrated. IMO - grappling (BJJ in particular) came into the public eye most recently via the UFC. Most fighters outside of grappling were not prepared or expecting all out groundfighting and had never trained defenses for the shoot and other takedowns and were taken by surprise by this approach. I would think that any good standup fighter that lost to a grappler during those times would certainly have a different approach to fighting now.

So in the end - I must give credit to all of the good grapplers that "woke" so many of us up to their approach to fighting. Which IMHO was a great lesson in itself. But by the same token - it's no longer any surprise.

As far as Wing Chun needing to be supplemented by a grappling art? Absolutely no. The answers were there all along.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What I'm trying to do with my last post is flush out all of the FAIRY TALES by challenging those who believe in them to give REAL answers...TO A POSSIBLE SCENARIO THAT COULD HAPPEN...

and so far I don't hear any SERIOUS ANSWERS...

and do you know why there are no real answers being given:

because wing chun...OF AND BY ITSELF... has some very serious problems dealing with the scenarios I suggested...

and also because some people around here are only half the fighter they think they are...

AND THAT IS A VERY UNFORTUNATE COMBINATION...

Not 100% sure what exactly Kenwingjitsu was getting at with his trolling comment...perhaps he could explain it further?

[mun hung]

UltimateWingChun - there are no set formulas to fighting. "If I did this" and "then I would do that" conversations are fruitless.

"I would jump up and do a flying side kick"

"I would step aside and punch you in the groin"

"I would gong sau midair and counter with a sun punch as I am landing from my side kick"

"I would pak your punch and biu jee your eyeball as soon as you touch earth"

"I would".......

[KenWingJitsu]

Victor. Trolling is stating an opinion that is obviously wrong in an attempt to ellicit a strong opposing reaction,. Either the "troll" is delibrately talking smack or......................the troll is truly ignorant.........or in denial........(river Egypt lol).

I don't know which it is, but.................talk is cheap. I DARE anyone who thinks grappling is overrated to step up and prove it....typing on your computers doesn't count. Y'all know who you are.

talk is cheap. Come on 'wingchunners' there's a Jiu Jitsu school near you.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by mun hung
In response to the original question - I think that some of the grappling arts are very good, but are DEFINITELY overrated. IMO - grappling (BJJ in particular) came into the public eye most recently via the UFC. Most fighters outside of grappling were not prepared or expecting all out groundfighting and had never trained defenses for the shoot and other takedowns and were taken by surprise by this approach. I would think that any good standup fighter that lost to a grappler during those times would certainly have a different approach to fighting now.

Good point. Grappling will always be an important component of arranged competition such as UFC's.

So in the end - I must give credit to all of the good grapplers that "woke" so many of us up to their approach to fighting. Which IMHO was a great lesson in itself. But by the same token - it's no longer any surprise.

That's mirrors my thinking vis-a-vis this discussion. Everybody's got to analyze their approach with the awareness that there are more grapplers out there. Kinda' like a few years back, I woulda' assumed that a street opponent would have some boxing or karate background. Or at least seen it on TV.

As far as Wing Chun needing to be supplemented by a grappling art? Absolutely no. The answers were there all along.

Yes. Anyone is welcome to pursue more than one art. As for teaching more than one, I have some qualms about that myself, but as long as the students understand that's what they're getting, then caveat emptor, which does not imply a negative appellation.

Most of us will find our skills to be somewhere around the norm for our respective arts. That doesn't bode well if we engage in combat with the top guys from our own or another martial skill.

Cheers,

[planetwc]

So where are the "PURE" Wing Chun fighters who have won ANY NHB/MMA event with NO background or crosstraining in grappling against an MMA fighter.

Where are the "PURE" Wing Chun fighters who have won against a pure grappler?

MMA based fighters (crosstrained in grappling, Muay Thai and Boxing) have a track record in terms of fighting, and winning.
By either submission or TKO.

Too much here on this forum is almost like religion and "faith", which I think is misplaced in this context. An MMA guy knows what works for him and what doesn't because he has trained it and used it against a resisting opponent. And more to the point he continues to do so and generally has no problem testing it as a combat athelete to find out what does and does not work.

Whereas here we seem more content to quote Wing Chun scripture and cannon as if that somehow equates to actually stepping into a ring/cage and throwing down. "I will use my holy structure and smite my grappling foe". "Because I have good Wing Chun, I shall not be taken to the ground." "I am impervious to Muay Thai kicks."

Evidence? Proof? Well I have none, just "faith".

If the answers "were there all along", then why were they not in evidence in the fighting of Traditional Chinese Martial artists in early and present day MMA/NHB events, let alone stopping by the local BJJ school and trying you hand with them.

Now it is no longer a surprise about what a grappler can and will do. So have Wing Chun students trained REALISTICALLY against single and double leg takedowns? Suplex? Power Slams? Judo throws? BJJ drag downs?

If so, where did you get the expertise of the opponent who is feeding you those techniques? Did they cross train in a grappling art to a level of competancy?

In what way are grappling arts or better still MMA trained students "overrated"? Is it because they actually fight and win against TCMA people over and over and over again?

Please name 3 Wing Chun fighters who have gone to a BJJ dojo had a challenge match and won?

Until that occurs on a basis consistent with the victories seen by MMA fighters, there is a lot of denial going on here.

Originally posted by mun hung
In response to the original question - I think that some of the grappling arts are very good, but are DEFINITELY overrated. IMO - grappling (BJJ in particular) came into the public eye most recently via the UFC. Most fighters outside of grappling were not prepared or expecting all out groundfighting and had never trained defenses for the shoot and other takedowns and were taken by surprise by this approach. I would think that any good standup fighter that lost to a grappler during those times would certainly have a different approach to fighting now.

So in the end - I must give credit to all of the good grapplers that "woke" so many of us up to their approach to fighting. Which IMHO was a great lesson in itself. But by the same token - it's no longer any surprise.

As far as Wing Chun needing to be supplemented by a grappling art? Absolutely no. The answers were there all along.

[KenWingJitsu]

Where are the "PURE" Wing Chun fighters who have won against a pure grappler?

There are none. They are currently aslumber in dreamland.

Too much here on this forum is almost like religion and "faith", which I think is misplaced in this context.

Heh. Correct. Fantasy land..living in denial...river in Egypt lol.

I can't really add anymore except I agree wholeheartedly with planetwc and ultimatewingchun

[yuanfen]

Planet wc joining the mma drumbeat sez:
So where are the "PURE" Wing Chun fighters who have won ANY NHB/MMA event with NO background or crosstraining in grappling against an MMA fighter.

Where are the "PURE" Wing Chun fighters who have won against a pure grappler?
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Wrong assumption- that nhb/mma is universally accepted as the
reality test. Name me some current not over the hill top five WBC ranked boxers who have entered NHB.Different show folks enter different shows.

One brother has fought pure grapplers and one- his student fought in a rage in the cage event and won. The guys I know dont come on KFO to brag about their acheievements. Its simply a net chat list. I dont brag either.

Atleast for myself- I have respect for grapplers but you dont have to do their version of "grappling" for self defense against them. Based on testing- not faith.

But net list funny farms are not juries.

[Rill]

yuanfen is correct, but we're not seeing anything in this thread that hasn't been done to death a thousand times.

I drink his beer and chat up his woman.

Honestly, John - you drink his beer?! That's just mean!

[wujidude]

Originally posted by Rill
[snip]

Honestly, John - you drink his beer?! That's just mean!

I'd drink my own beer and then go home to my woman. That's what I'm gonna do now.

[azwingchun]

Well, since you took some of my targets away, such as eyes and throat, I would have to react to whatever was open. But as far as playing the online forum UFC game I will end it here.

I do find it funny that you have excluded eyes and throat attacks in your online fight challenge. The reason I say this is, anytime I have had a friendly conversation with anyone who was a grappler, they always laugh and make some comment about how I would try to poke their eyes out. When in reality, the old famous kung fu eye gouge has immediately got me out of trouble with a grappler. No, not in NHB this was a reall down and dirty fight out at a party. I must admit, I was shocked when he took me down, but I took the shot which was open, that was the eyes.

I have used this in 3 different fights, two on the ground and one standing. As far as the throat, I have also used this also to win fights, more than a few times. But enough of me, maybe I was just lucky to have had these great results with these types of fanatsy techniques, but by god they worked when I needed them.

By the way, say what you will about me for not engaging in these online fantasy fights, but if you gave me that situation in real life over and over, my techniques or reactions would possibly never be the same. But it was fun to think about.