Grappling Overrated

[azwingchun]

With due respect to what you are saying about grappling, I do have a question for you. It involves your website. You state on this forum that Wing Chun doesn't have the answers to fight against grapplers, but your website says otherwise.

This isn't to discredit what you are saying here, just wonder why your websites presents a whole different view point?

[Ultimatewingchun]

John Widener:

A fair enough question which now requires a bigger step out into the open - I carefully worded my website so as not to upset my sifu, Grandmaster William Cheung, who I will always be indebted to... and who I still believe to this day is the best standup fighter I have ever seen...

I'm also still convinced to this day that the reason Emin Boztepe decided to bullrush William in the hopes of taking him to the floor is because Boztepe wanted no part of GM Cheung's standup skills...

be that as it may...rather than call my website ULTIMATE WING CHUN...( meaning: Traditional Wing Chun plus Catch-as-catch-can
Wrestling) - I have chosen to present it they way I have...

Sooner or later a day of reckoning will come with my Sifu...as has happened beteen us from time to time...and hopefully I might be able to "reach" him a little bit with persuasion...

But as of right now - although he has always taught some standup wing chun chin na techniques, as well as the one and only groundfighting technique I alluded to earlier in this thread -

Nonetheless...He still believes that the answer is more along the lines of anti-grappling than actual grappling...in terms of dealing with grapplers.

I do not subscribe to this point of view...and due to my life-long real life experience firsthand as to what a good grappling tech can do....

I'll never take that point of view.

[azwingchun]

Fair enough answer, though I have a question for you. By the way, this isn't isn't to slam you or anyone from this lineage. Despite any disagreements you and I have (or anyone else for that matter). I am one who doesn't follow blindly, and my kung fu brothers can back me on this. I believe in testing it, and I have in many situations, though, I don't go looking for trouble just for the sake of testing it. So, with that said, I respect all Wing Chun practitioners, whoever they are, or who they represent.

My question to you is, if you have been with Grandmaster William Cheung so long, I am sure that he has shown or taught you his ways of groundfighting. Do you think they are not good applications? Or they don't represent good, true Wing Chun? If you prefer not to answer in respect to your Sifu, I can completely understand.

The reason I ask this, is the website seems to make claims of having the answers against grapplers.

[kj]

Wow. What an emotional thread.

Some of my meager thoughts, FWIW.

• There are no unbeatable techniques.
• There are no unbeatable styles.
• There are no unbeatable people.
• Hand-to-hand combat is far from the greatest, most prevalent, and most certain of all risks most of us face in this world today.
• As with everything in this life, you pays your money and takes your chances.
• Anyone who believes they have the one and only 100% right answer, doesn't.
• Remember "Paper, rock, scissors," that "only a fool is sure," and Indiana Jones.
• In general, choices made in consideration, context and balance of one's entire life are superior to choices made on the basis of only a single fear factor or risk. IMHO, of course.

It is interesting reading all the various and often forceful opinions.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

John Widener:

I thought I made myself clear on this point:

GM Cheung does not teach actual groundfighting....other than the one-and-only technique I decribed earlier against someone who has mounted you and is now punching down at you...

other than that...in all the 20 years I am his student (this coming August,2003 will make 20 years)...he has never taught any actual groundfighting ... the only other move I can ever recall is one where you've been thrown to the ground and your opponent is still standing...how to use your legs to catch his legs and sweep him off his feet....so that you can get back up.

The all-out grappling that I have incorporated into the classes I teach come primarily from catch wrestling and some jiujitsu...that I have learned elsewhere...not from GM Cheung.

[azwingchun]

Sorry, you're correct, I misread your post. How are his feelings about your changes or additions? Since you seem to represent him?

[Zhuge Liang]

Originally posted by kj
Wow. What an emotional thread.

Some of my meager thoughts, FWIW.

• There are no unbeatable techniques.
• There are no unbeatable styles.
• There are no unbeatable people.
• Hand-to-hand combat is far from the greatest, most prevalent, and most certain of all risks most of us face in this world today.
• As with everything in this life, you pays your money and takes your chances.
• Anyone who believes they have the one and only 100% right answer, doesn't.
• Remember "Paper, rock, scissors," that "only a fool is sure," and Indiana Jones.
• In general, choices made in consideration, context and balance of one's entire life are superior to choices made on the basis of only a single fear factor or risk. IMHO, of course.

It is interesting reading all the various and often forceful opinions.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

If you think your "reasoning" and "logic" will work in the real world, then you're living in fantasy land! Unless you've tested your reasoning skills agaisnt resisting, ******* bafoons in real life, you're going to have your ass handed to you when you try to talk sense to the next neck-less, lowbrow, neanderthal. Why don't you go to the VingTsun forum and see how your fancy "consistent, well thought out arguments" fare? You're in for a surprise. Unless you add illogical-tunnelvision-do to your training regimen, you're always going to have holes in your debating skills. I AM RIGHT! YOU ARE WRONG! I WANT ATTENTION, AND YOUR AFFIRMATION THAT I AM THE GREATEST AND THE SMARTESTESTEST!!!!!

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Ultimatewingchun]

John Widener:

"Since I seem to misrepresent him".....


You've just exposed yourself as being hostile....

Therefore...you get no more answers!

[azwingchun]

I don't know how you took that as hostile. That was an honest question. Why are you so defensive? You yourself said that the grappling you have isn't from him. I know how many Sifus are about students adding to the system and then teaching it under their name.

Relax a little, I am just very curious what others teach and why. Not intended to stir anything up. I believe this is what this forum is about, sharing ideas on how and what each of us do in our Wing Chun.

So, if this is hostile, sorry, I call it learning. It was never meant as a poke at you. Just clarification on a misunderstanding.

[kj]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang


If you think your "reasoning" and "logic" will work in the real world, then you're living in fantasy land! Unless you've tested your reasoning skills agaisnt resisting, ******* bafoons in real life, you're going to have your ass handed to you when you try to talk sense to the next neck-less, lowbrow, neanderthal. Why don't you go to the VingTsun forum and see how your fancy "consistent, well thought out arguments" fare? You're in for a surprise. Unless you add illogical-tunnelvision-do to your training regimen, you're always going to have holes in your debating skills. I AM RIGHT! YOU ARE WRONG! I WANT ATTENTION, AND YOUR AFFIRMATION THAT I AM THE GREATEST AND THE SMARTESTESTEST!!!!!

ROFLOL. You are commensurately affirmed.

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

ultimatefighter sez:
yuanfen is not interested in wing chun as a FIGHTING art.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The hell I am not- as usual wrong inference.

[HuangKaiVun]

There's A TON of grappling in Wing Chun.

For example, the "downward prayer" move in the Biu Jee set is a great way to shoot downwards against an incoming frontal takedown.

When I do it, I don't look exactly like the form. But that downward dropping motion is what I need when guys try to shoot in on me to take my legs out. My hands are usually grabbing the other opponent's limbs or torso in that scenario.

By dropping my center of gravity below the opponent's, I manage to use that grappling technique to keep myself on my feet. Being short actually works to my advantage.

Let's also not forget how the double arm blocks right after the 3 fuk sao + pak sao combinations in Siu Lum Tao can be used as rear sleeper holds or headlocks.

[reneritchie]

If you think your "reasoning" and "logic" will work in the real world, then you're living in fantasy land! Unless you've tested your reasoning skills agaisnt resisting, ******* bafoons in real life, you're going to have your ass handed to you when you try to talk sense to the next neck-less, lowbrow, neanderthal.

If you've seen KJ's posts before, you know she been der, done dat, and pried a T-Shirt from dem bafoons cold, dazed hands... 8)

[reneritchie]

HKV,

A classmate of mine won a local NHB tourney in the early 90s. He did end up on the ground, and naturally ended up in side control, where he applied rising knees until the guy gave him his back. He then squeezed the guy's head in between his forearms (like in between two Lan Sao's) until the guy tapped. That's an example of extrapolating the concepts, IMHO, and also of proving their effectiveness against resistant opponents, moving it beyond the realm of theory. (I believe they ended up on the ground because the guy, a nationally competitive TKD and Judo guy) made the mistake of trying a spinning kick, which my classmate rushed in on immediately. That broke the guy's balance, but he was able to grab onto my classmate and pull my classmate down with him - dynamic balance in combat not being the same as rooting in SLT

[mun hung]

(Quote) Originally posted by UltimateFighter

"No, the answers were not there all along".

Maybe you have no idea of what I'm talking about because your Wing Chun is very limited. But that's probably not your fault.

"That is an arrogant and foolish statement based on blind belief. Your mistake is your assumption that WC is some sort of 'magical' art that has all the answers".

You've got me painted all wrong. I'm not a pansy@ss fantasy kung fu guy. I've been in alot of streetfights. I love the "martial" aspect of the art and that's why I practice it. I believe in experimenting and testing your skills. No magic. Just hard training against unwilling partners and sparring. I'm recovering from a fracture right now (my second) and it aint from ballroom dancing.

"It has some good techniques in its ideal suited area which is close range standup fighting, and it can be adapted for other ranges but it does not do grappling, groundfighting or ranged standup fighting as well as arts which train in them specifically".

An apple is an apple is an apple.

"The WC answer would probably be striking from behind which is less efficient".

I know several good chokes myself, but since when is striking someone in the back of the head not efficient? Imagine getting hit with an elbow anywhere in the back of the head or neck.

If you like ground grappling - do it. Just don't say Wing Chun is inefficient because you don't understand it completely. I totally respect JJ/BJJ/Judo and I like the way they train. I have alot of friends who train either JJ/BJJ/Judo. I totally respect their shoots and takedowns just as they respect my elbows and knees. Who would win? The better fighter. Not necessarily the better style. Do whatever you like.