"true" bagua stepping methods

[count]

Some systems of bagua do not use Bi Bu that much. It's not incorrect, just a different understanding of what steps are for and how to use them. Sounds like Gou style to me, which also does have more Hsing-I in it than others.

[Waidan]

Jon - Thanks for the info. The difference between the steps (as they relate to circle walking) is a small but important one. I don't disagree with your method and I'm sure there are pros and cons to both steps.

I tend to agree that the baibu step is a more applicable kicking technique (though I hardly think the straight mudstep is useless in that regard), and the idea that it generates more coiling (or releasing) movement in the body is hard to argue. One reason for our straight step is increased protection of the groin and inside of the kua, according to my teacher. As I stated before, our style uses a lot of xingyi striking in our forms (I can't say whether these strikes were actually taken from xingyi, or if they merely share a similar mechanic), and the straight step serves to power a lot of those movements.

Count - I haven't seen Gou performed, but I've been told of their straight-line forms. We do all our forms on a circle (well, a bunch of circles...they don't call it 9 palace for nothing ) but certainly there could be a lot of similarity in philosophy and technique between the schools. If I get off my duff and pay Shen Wu a visit, I'm sure they could confirm this.

[Walter Joyce]

If my memory serves be correctly, it is NOT an either or proposition (mud stepping or ko bu bai bu).

Also, Luo lashi, if my memory is still working, mentioned four basic stepping methods in bagua: mud step, heel toe, chicken step, and crane step, any of which can be chosen as a basic stepping method in your circle walking practice. Also, I believe that Luo lashi emphasized chicken step last time I saw him (summer of 2002).

[Waidan]

Hey Walter

In our system we use the mudstep, rolling (heel-toe), and chicken step. Beginners only learn and practice mudstepping, as its mechanics are central to our practice. I wasn't shown the rolling and chicken steps 'till about two years in.

[omarthefish]

I showed the one straight line exercise I learned to my Sifu in China and he took one look and told me straight up it was Xing-Yi not Bagua. What do I know? Don't care really.

I've heared about the four sifferent stepping methods too but never seen them except in America and in English language books about Bagua. My Chinese instructors have made refence to chicken step or crane step but I got the impression they were different names for the same thing. Toe heel stepping has gotten me nothing but weird looks or laughter when asked about in China. My feeling is that the other steps (ie. not muddy) are for very specialized purposes. For instance chicken stepping developes strong kicks. My main reason is just that I can't find any references to anything other than snake stepping/muddy stepping in old Bagua 'songs' but I have bumped into many references to muddy stepping/sliding stepping/snake stepping.

[Walter Joyce]

FWIW, Luo lashi is from Taipei, not mainland china, but not america either. He is known for his in depth research into the methods and development of ba gua practice, not just the gao style methods.

[jon]

count
"Some systems of bagua do not use Bi Bu that much. It's not incorrect, just a different understanding of what steps are for and how to use them."
* This is a bit what i was trying to get accross, in *no* way do i want to imply that the strait mudstep is wrong or not Bagua. Its just not a step that I personaly use much or really understand. Although i have learnt the step its not one I focuss on in my training.
My purpose in posting the thread on Dragonslist was to both get an understanding of what linages prefer which step but also why which linages prefer which step.


The step which im generaly critical of is the one often favored by Wushu performers where the foot is placed on the ground and then slips (slides) forward (in performance the longer the better it seems). This step seems contry to Bagua writings on stepping and I cant understand the practical purpose behind it.

Ive always been taught that any type of good stepping should be solid and rooted and should transfer to poles without much trouble. The sliding foot is obviously not grounded and would be impossible to transfer to pole walking in its present state.


"Raise levelly, fall and hook continuousness everywhere."

"Bend the legs, treading mud step; the arches of the feet are empty."

"Root like the mountains and hills, step like water."

[Waidan]

"The step which im generaly critical of is the one often favored by Wushu performers where the foot is placed on the ground and then slips (slides) forward (in performance the longer the better it seems). This step seems contry to Bagua writings on stepping and I cant understand the practical purpose behind it."

Agreed. My understanding of "Mudstepping" is that the practitioner is walking cautiously (planting and gripping before transfering weight), as if they were trying to avoid slipping in mud.

[jon]

Waidan

I agree totaly with you there, the foot should not slide it should be placed and then weight transfered.
I think of the two mudslipping and mudstepping quite differently dispite the names being somewhat similar. One implies trying to ski though the mud by skidding and the other implys carefull placement and weight transfer.
Then again maybe im just picking on symantics

Either way i compleately understand where your comming from and should have pointed out this difference in my views earlier.
Ah well im an idiot, now back to walking around in circles staring intently at my hands

[count]

While it's not our style to slide the foot forward it is clearly another step in power issuing in others. Just my understanding based on what I have heard about Gao style 4 part stepping as I outlined earlier. You get four separate hits out of each part. Also seems to me that Cheng style steps out kind of far. But than, Cheng Ting Hua was much taller than say, Gong Bao Tien. The stride was perfect for him, but maybe not for you. Your teachers step might not be right for you either.

Keep level (about one head lower for starters)
walk carefully as if you were in slipery mud. (Ankle Deep)
Lift from the hip (with force)
Foot stays level just above the ground
Grip the ground with your toes with each step

I understand what you are saying about wushu, but if you really want to see the difference watch the hands instead of feet. I would also say that I have seen some wushu players that would kick your ass and mine.

[Brad]

The step which im generaly critical of is the one often favored by Wushu performers where the foot is placed on the ground and then slips (slides) forward (in performance the longer the better it seems). This step seems contry to Bagua writings on stepping and I cant understand the practical purpose behind it.

I don't think there is a practical purpose behind it. I think they're just flat out doing it wrong, either from not paying close enough attention to their teacher, or they're teacher just doesn't know Bagua to well(or doesn't care enough to teach correctly :P). Really, I don't think I've ever seen modern wushu athletes doing Bagua like this in competition, but then again, I don't think I've seen to many modern wushu people doing Bagua at all (here in the US).

[omarthefish]

Walter,

We've spoken before, I'm Bailewen you know. I like Luo's Bagua a lot too. In fact, I'll go so far as to say his is the only Bagua I've seen on instructional video that I thought was worth a ****. I'll refrain from publicly listing the tapes I've seen though. Wouldn't want to upset anybody . . .

Anyways, I didn't say there weren't other steps, just that I think they are far less critical than muddy stepping and on the video I used to have, Luo Sifu was mostly muddy stepping.

[Walter Joyce]

hello Baliwen and Waidan Just throwing out what I know.