Shaolin belts?

[phoenix-eye]

In our school there is a "sash" grading system which is very well defined and is clearly set out on paper for each of the 8 sash grades to black so that you know what is basically required for each.

It is therefore consistent for all students and shows a clear progression from basic techniques to more advanced. The syllabus for each new grade always retains elements of the previous grade so that a true progression is maintained.

It's true that belts mean nothing overall - but at least in a system like this you know that whoever has the belt/sash has studied the same things as you and has achieved the same things you are trying to.

I therefore don't see the sash as being a bad thing in this type of structured teaching system.

It becomes very bad when there is no clearly defined structure to the system and sash grades are awarded with very little apparent consistency. In this event they really do become meaningless.

I suppose the real answer I'm suggesting is that the sash is a reflection of the sifu. If the system and sifu are respected then your sash grade should be respected.

However, at the end of the day the sash means nothing unless you are true to yourself and recognise your own true level within the art you study.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[Kung Lek]

Phoenix eye, I was using the term belt and sash interchangably. I understand what you mean though and I do agree.

My Si Fu has specific recquirements for each Sash and also for levels of instructorship. which all fall in the Black Sash level of training.

To me personally, the "door opens" at the level of black sash, prior to this is all fundamental developement even though quite a bit of knowledge is acquired before the black sash is bestowed upon a student.

My Si Fu holds high standards and demonstrable knowledge, understanding, attitude, spirit, loyalty and skill absolutely had to be present before advancing.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links

[azwingchun]

I agree with what you are saying, though your school seems to be an exception. I have gone to other schools (many to be exact) and I see 9 year olds with black belts. This drives me crazy! Then there is a Hwa Rang Do school here in Arizona which I visited where you couldn't even test for black until you were at least 18 years old. Which I think is great.

As far as the ego which belts seem to bring on, well I see this alot. The funny thing is the ego I usually see comes from the Karate type schools. And NO I am not bashing systems, just passing on what I have seen.

My Kung Fu brothers and I have been torn between the issue of to wear sashes or just have levels. Since again, people tend to want to have it to show how they have progressed. We finally decided not to wear them, though one of my Kung Fu brothers decided to do it for the children, you know to keep them interested and to give them some sense of accomplishment.

I once had a Karate teacher who would say "A black belt and .25 cents(wow just realized my keyboard doesn't have a "cents" sign) on the street will by you a cup of coffee." Though we did have a belt ranking system, I knew what he was trying to get across to us. :D

[PaleDragon]

i tested for my first sash today...i "passed"...but i dont think i will wear it till more people in the class have tested.

[Ming the Merciless]

Here's the thing....

Personally I don't care too much about belts. what matters to me is...can I handle myself on the street.

A black belt/sash means nothing to me. I guarantee you it means nothing to the guy who is trying to take your wallet or beat you down because he doesn't like the way you look.

[Kung Lek]

Agreed, it means little on the street in a superficial sense.

But not in your skill sense if you have truly worked for the sash/belt in the frmework of pratice of true martial arts.

Karate does have a lot of aggression in it and makes the point of aggression a key focus of its practice. Fierceness and an agressive attitude are encouraged in the foundational study of Karate.

I have often heard the phrase 50 cents and a bachelors degree will get you a cup of coffee too :) nevertheless, you do the study and work required to get the degree.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links

[triskellin]

we work off the sihing/jei, sidai/mui titles in my school, no belt ranking...
anyways, last yr during cny, 2 of my sihings came back after a 6yr break or something to help us with the lion dance... my simu took out these *really* long sashes for them to wear, and one of the guys told me they were for the dai sihings of the school. i thought it was complete bull at first, cause they're a bunch of egomaniacs, and they're not the dai sihings, but i remembered i grabbed one of the sashes to wear cause it was the closest one to me, and my simu said no don't wear it, and i said 'oops, *looks at it* yeah it's too long'

anyone ever hear of anything like that?? cause the guy looked at the sash and said 'maybe i should pass this down...' lol, that was funny. see, even with no belt system ppl can get egotistical!

To see what you want to see is worse than being blind.

[Dash Iros]

I know that Karate has the Belt system to measure a fighter's ability. But does Kung fu has anything like that to measure's one ability?

[norther practitioner]

Depends on the school.

China came up with the duan system too...

but not "traditionally"

[PangQuan]

generally with alot of students it makes it easier to teach with a rank system, a colored belt system has been incorporated into lots of kung fu for this reason.

I dont play too much into it though. Some schools you can get your black belt in a few years, some it will take you 10 years. I have met blackbelts who dont match up to some middle rank belts. And then i have met some that are seriously good.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

belts are used to keep ur pants up traditionally....
and that wat i use mines for =)
and also belts are used for back support too
just like how those weight lifters use belts on there back..dat why kung fu people use belts too..same reason.....and keep pants up..=)

belts = ranks = level..is all bull crap to me..since every system/shool has there own way of reaching a black belt..so if u tell me u a black belt it doesnt mean anythin to me..jus like the guy above me stated..seen some good black belts..seen some black betls dat look like whit belts...all dont mean anything to me

[wdl]

belts are used to keep ur pants up traditionally....
and that wat i use mines for =)
and also belts are used for back support too
just like how those weight lifters use belts on there back..dat why kung fu people use belts too..same reason.....and keep pants up..=)

You left out:

various partner stretches so they can pull you taunter
partner assisted one arm pushups to help students attain one without assistance
getting tied to your sparring opponent for a continuous fight
etc, etc, the list goes on and on

My point being, who cares about rank when you can use it as a training tool. As others have mentioned, I've seen black belts that I'd not hesitate to get into a fight with, then I've seen others that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot poll.

So what is a black belt? I appears by this reasoning it's a measure of how much time you've spent studying a martial art(assuming it takes atleast 3+ years for a black belt, I know big assumption) and whether or not you've actually done anything in that time period. From my observation, they either suck or they don't after atleast 3+ years in.

-Will

[David Jamieson]

belts are used to recognize levels of achievment in an individual.

Coloured belts or other denotations of rank within a heirarchy are common, even in Buddhist temples! (look how monks are dressed compared to higher level monks compared to the abbot of the temple) All are ranked according to their station in the heirarchy.

anyway, they are not required, but in a kwoon, dojo or dojang, they are really quite useful in keeping things set and straight.

It makes it easy to identify who is who and what is what and where people are at in the curricullum. You go to school and achieve grades, I don't see a problem with the same thing in another type of school.

All martial arts schools I attended that were formal in their output had ranks, belts and sashes. Karate, TKD and Kungfu. All of em.

Plenty of serious traditional martial arts teachers use the system of belts or sashes.

In less formal type of training, they aren't necessary really. For instance an informal group of adults training really doesn't have a place for heirarchy.
But a mixed group in a publically operated kwoon crys out for structure and order and ergo belts are a tool to this end.

In summary, belts and sashes get some people uptight and other people can't give a rats ass whether they are used or not.

It really depends on who is giving the material and how they want to do it. Period.

[g0pher]

Belts are more of a "Karate School" type thing. Most of the Kung Fu schools here in Philly, PA use no ranking system. For instance, in my schools we all wear the same black sash whether you have been here for 15 minutes or 15 years. The only rank we have is junior master, which is a red sash and it's given out hardly.

...Belt systems are only useful in a large class that does not accomodate a diverse group of students.... And for people who enjoy ego trips and saying they got a black belt in 3 months from Tiger Schulman's Karate.

[Scythefall]

Belts don't make sense to me anymore. I've run into many people that haven't trained in years, but still quickly let people know that they have a black belt in a certain art. Through conversation, I've found many times that the person doesn't remember much of their system. When you reach the point that you're struggling to remember things associated with your "rank" are you still that rank?

If my Sifu wants to test me, that's good, because then he can let me know if I'm doing things correctly. I don't want a belt though..just more training.