Need advice from cooler heads than mine

[Oso]

well, the guy would have to admit that his classes would be easier than mine. and I'm sure that would happen.

I wish I felt like bashing. I would describe how this guy was doing his kenpo/arnis/pencak combination. but I'll leave it to your imagination.

[Laughing Cow]

Oso.

As far as I am concerned there is NO reason why anyone should have consulted you.

From what I get you are renting a space, so the space was recommended by an ex-student, big deal.

What is your real beef?
Worried about loosing students?
Want to be only guy on the block?

Forget about respect it is business in that case.
Or do you think it would be different if it was another teacher/style with no ex-student.

Respect & Dignity is how you handle the situation from now on.

In most countries I have been to many schools need to share the same space and location due to limited availability.

Last place I trained sometimes it was used by Aikido guys and sometimes by us and sometimes as a Child minding area.

To be honest, I also don't think that the gym owner needs or should consult you over HIS property and what he does with it, unless it is so specified in your agreement.

Just keep doing your stuff and don't worry about the other guy.

Cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

Question,

Did your class get bumped? If yes, and there was no notifacation, you have a right to be po'ed.

If no, your useing community space, and that is just the name of the game. Get yourself a Phone book add that rings to a cell phone, promote the living daylights out of your club, and get a store front space. Then YOU are in charge and noone else.

[crumpet]

how does an area up for hire to the public become solely 'your' space just because you teach there at certain times? unless you have an alter paying respects to your lineage, then it's not disrespectul for others to teach there. and you wouldn't have that alter unless that was solely your kwoon... i've never heard of an etiquette where you would have to ask another instructor if you could teach in the same area (unless that instructor also owned it). the only problem i could see arising is if the 2 groups don't keep to themselves. there are plenty of places such as community halls which are there for that purpose, and it's really up to the discretion of the owner/manager. and wasn't it just an exhibition? once off shouldn't be a worry.

[PHILBERT]

Had something similar happen a couple weeks ago in my Wing Tsun class. We work out in a gym too, in the areobic room and have this contract with the place. It's like 8:50, nobody in the gym area and this guy walks into our room (which we had the doors closed) and begins doing a Karate kata (rather poorly too I might add, he was all unbalanced and messing up) in the middle of our Kung Fu class. Of course everyone in the room is holding back there laughter and one guy Im training with whispers "Look at me, I'm stupid!". My instructor was being all nice to him and all, the guy had no idea how rude it was that he just walked into our area and practiced Karate. There was plenty of space out in the weightroom for him to practice. Needless to say we still make fun of the guy.

[dezhen2001]

hmm... thats a tough one mate. as far as i can see it just seems like they hired the same general hall space in the community center/sports center as you right? if so then its just general space even if you have a weekly slot there.

for eg. my sifu has his class in a sports centre. recently another chen taijiquan club from a different lineage has started in the same building (different days). We only have some small notices up at the entrance to the sports centre yet they have put their posters specifically right beside ours etc. Even taken some down or put theirs over! But really - they are promoting thru the "lineage" approach whereas ours is just as good but we dont do that. So they get the people who want that whereas we get the people who wanna just train for health and do push hands more or whatever - so it all works out even tho is a bit tougher these days

So really i would say if it was just a one off thing then let it slide... but if its gonna be a regular thing then i think you should ask to be kept informed, as you may a) be planning seminars or extra classes also so need to know when the space is free or b) could even wanna send people for extra practise (if its a good teacher doing the seminar) or however many other possible reasons.

I reckon thats its always good to give a cursory "nod" to the other MA in the community - especially if its the same skill, but then again thats the difference between business and a community trying to help everyone.

im not a full time teacher or anything though so i dont really know how the situation will affect your living...

good luck anyway buddy
dawood

[Oso]

well, I've stated my case pretty clearly so far.

I do feel it's my space insofar as I have been working my ass off to associate that place and my name as a good place to train ma.

Yes, it is a semi-public place but as I said, I have a sign up at the road, right below the sign for the gym. Approved of course by the owner of the gym. My gear is stored in the space. To me this means some respect is due for my efforts to promote myself and teach good ma. I have brought in several people who have since signed contracts with the gym, which makes me less money as gym members can take the class for free. So, yes, from a business standpoint I don't want the extra competition (such as it was).

It's not like I'm griping about a ma school opening up accross the street or next door. This is in the space I'm trying to associate with AMA (me) and good ma. So, from that standpoint I also don't want someone with extremely poor movement doing something in the same place as I do my thing because I don't want someone new to the gym to see them and associate them with me:

"hey, I hear you got a guy teaching kung fu at your gym"

"yea, but I saw him the other day and he was doing something or another but he was tripping over his own feet. It didn't look very good"

"oh, well, I guess I'll look elsewhere"

but that's all just from the business side. which I will have to clear up with the gym owner or move elsewhere.


I would never occupy another teacher's space in any manner without talking with him or her. That is how I interpret what respect and honor between teacher's should be about. That's what I give and that's what I expect. And it should take precedence over the business aspect.


I reckon thats its always good to give a cursory "nod" to the other MA in the community - especially if its the same skill, but then again thats the difference between business and a community trying to help everyone.

this is all I'm asking for. As I told my former student, I would have certainly agreed to having this guy come in and do a seminar and would have promoted it to my students perhaps gaining the other instructor more people. But, only once as I was very unimpressed with his skills.

thanks for the input

[Royal Dragon]

Oso, the big question IS Did you and your students get bumped from your class becasue of it?

[Oso]

RD, no they didn't. But, I don't feel that's the big question.

Again, simply, it should have been a matter of professional courtesy to have at least let me know what was going on. But, a much more serious breach of respect by my former student for setting the whole thing up to begin with.

[Royal Dragon]

Sounds like you are in a commuinity center. You don't have a gripe. If you make a big deal out of it, your going to end up looking like and A$s hole to the gyms owner. It will start a political back lashs between you. If you don't have a store front or something already set up, I'd drop it. If you do, there is no sense persuing even a discussion about it because your leaving soon anyway.

Trust me, I have been running programs in Rec centers and park dist for years (sinc 94). You're better off just ignoring the whole thing. It's not YOUR room, it's the gym's. You just rent some space there for a few hours a week.

[Oso]

RD, I'm in a private Gym. Not a rec or community center.

And AGAIN, there are two separate issues.

1 - the one with my former student and the instructor he brought in.

2 - the one with the gym owner. The agreement we have is verbal and this has only come up before when I stopped offering a tai chi class due to lack of interest and he had the opportunity to bring someone else in to do that. (On a side note this tai chi guy teaches "Chi Kung Tai Chi" and says it with a straight face) I wished the gym owner and the new guy well and hoped he could attract some people to his class. I will be discussing this issue with the gym owner this week.

[Vapour]

If you and this student were friends or been in close dicipline-master relationship, yes, what he did was not nice and I would go as far as say that it is completely wrong akin to screwing your friend girlfriend. But were you that close to that student or for that matter the owner of gym to "insist" that they ought to be nice to you or did you just assume that they owe you something just because you are his master (which is such an abused term).

Respect you get as instructor is not right and you don't own student nor you can tell them what they can do outside class. This student and the owner as well as kempo instructors had every right to do what they did and if they ask you, they weren't asking permission, they are just being nice to you and you should be graceful that they cared. If they didn't, tough.

[Oso]

If you and this student were friends or been in close dicipline-master relationship, yes, what he did was not nice and I would go as far as say that it is completely wrong akin to screwing your friend girlfriend. But were you that close to that student or for that matter the owner of gym to "insist" that they ought to be nice to you or did you just assume that they owe you something just because you are his master (which is such an abused term).

I have certainly not claimed 'mastership' of anyone or anything. I gave this guy a fair amount of free private instruction because he was so interested in the beginning. I put up with him being constantly late to class and eventually a total lackluster performance in what I had taught him but a continuing attitude that I should teach him more stuff even though he had not come close to attaining any real skill in what he had learned. Not to mention a constant line of 'we do it this way in kenpo' remarks.

But, yes, I feel that I should be consulted in the addition of any martial arts program to the very small venue of the gym because I have been there for two years and added to my program and in a small way to the overall benefit of the gym. I'm not saying that I should have the final say, it is someone else's building. But, I should be given the opportunity to agree or disagree with the proposed action and if I disagree enough, protest.



Respect you get as instructor is not right and you don't own student nor you can tell them what they can do outside class.

I never said it was a right. It has to be earned. I feel I have earned it, at least within those 4 walls. The student in question quit my class. I helped him protect his ego in that process because I like him as a person. Prior to him quitting I offered, and gave, free private training to help him out.


This student and the owner as well as kempo instructors had every right to do what they did and if they ask you, they weren't asking permission, they are just being nice to you and you should be graceful that they cared. If they didn't, tough.

I also never said I should be asked 'permission' but as a professional courtesy. That professional courtesy was not extended and I have a right to be peeved about that.

Some of you guys are not reading what I'm saying. My gripe is with the lack of professional courtesy that I feel should be extended from one ma teacher to another and respect due a former teacher. It's about communication. Something that is in a very poor state of affairs within the ma community. I did not blow up or start kicking a ss but expressed my displeasure to all parties involved in a basically civil manner. I wanted to see if anyone else agreed that there was some impropriety involved in the situation.

[guohuen]

I think it's proper bussiness etiquite to ask. Most bussiness' have a no competition clause in your lease. You would'nt want a owner to let someone open a sandwich shop next to yours. You expect your landlord to respect your bussiness and not do anything to hurt it. (I think you'd have to be a self defeating idiot to do something like that.)
The former student is an immature twit that needs to be ostracized.

[Oso]

LOL, thanks.

I don't intend to ostracize him at all. I'm just ****ed. He did call to apologize but I had to tell him I was too ****ed to talk with him about it at that point in time and we would talk later. A stroke of maturity I didn't know I had in me.