12 Ideas for Body Movement

[seung ga faat]

When was still at my Sifu's School training, I once asked him about the 7 Star keywords. My Sifu's response was,"You already know them". So, I asked him what they were and his response was, 'What you need to do is figure out how to use your moves for attack and defense,all can be used for both." As you can see, My Sifu is very good at teaching you to think for yourself and what I discovered is the limits placed on any art are Self-imposed and controlled by your level of understanding and imagination or ability to visualize.
Having said the above let me apply this approach to a classical keyword formula. Let's start with hook,
gather and pluck. First let's add one more word to the above keywords so, we will have hook-step,Gather-step and pluck-step. Then we can also add throw so, have hook-throw,gather-throw and pluck-throw. All of these keyword combinations can be found in the Collapsing Step form in the early movements of the form.
You must also use hooking, gather and plucking bodywork in order to apply it efficiently.
I will let this marinade a little and then I will add some spice.........
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[yu shan]

Is this go lo tsai? Excuse my spelling. And this bodywork, do you mean Fa-Jing energy? Thank you Shrfu Thomas.

[seung ga faat]

Yu Shan,
Yes, Gou,Lou,Cai/Tsai or Ngau,Lao,Choy/Cheui.
Fa-jing is one element of bodywork but don't forget the shape or pattern the body makes when doing these moves. The body pace and delayed can make the applications more efficient.
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[mantis108]

and pardon my rather blunt post. I am not sure if reductionist approach, that is reminiscent of JKD, is productive to develope PM techniques. There might be some benefits to it but overall development may not be beneficial by this method.

With the Go-lu-Tsai, there are 2 Shun Fa (body method) IMHO that are very important - Teng (leaping) and Nuo (shifting). There is a drill in the QiShou (7 hands), Tao Hua San (peach flower blooming), etc., that teaches Go-lu-tsai with Nuo. There are other Sau Fa (applications) such as "Gwa Hu Pu Chan", "Bai Yuan Tau Tao", "Xian Ren Juao Fa" (immortal pulls hair), etc... that teaches Go-lu-tsai with Teng. I am not certain that reinventing the wheel is a good idea although sometimes it is a necessary evil.

Frankly, I am concern with the trend that equates PM approach with JKD approach. It has happen to other CMA styles that starve for original application teachings. I believe it is PM instructors' responsibilities not to let that happen. Personally, I am quite uncomfortable with JKDize PM.

Just a thought

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Mantis108,

I agree completely. Too often I hear of students being told to figure applications out for themselves. It is a teacher's responsibility to teach the applications of the techniques. What good is practicing the form if you do not understand it. Whenever I hear this, I am led to believe that the teacher either does not know the applications himself or is unwilling to teach them to that student. I hear phrases like "spoon-feeding" as an excuse for this type of teaching but I think a qualified teacher should teach at least basic applications for the techniques presented in the forms.

I do believe that students must digest what is taught to them on their own in order to grow. They must analyze the techniques, the forms, the applications taught to them. When they have practiced them sufficiently, they may experiment with different combinations or even other methods of applying the technique. But to offer no application instruction whatsoever is irresponsible teaching IMHO.

YM

[seung ga faat]

Again Thank you Andy.
Do not know JKD and I have know need for it.
My way of see limitless combinations in the forms and the style comes from my view of the style and it is just as valid an approach as any of the things you mentioned,108.
Young Mantis I do teach applications and so does my
Sifu.I don't however jump to conclusions based on incident or on the beginning of a post which really is speaking about movement and energy as it is applied in the forms.This is just part of a learning and teaching tool. Just like my Sifu way was his way of getting to explore my options.
PM is a ART. Open to exploration and interpretation.YM say hello to Robert J. for me.
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[yu shan]

Young Mantis

Well said, and thank you! A never ending battle with certain groups.

[Young Mantis]

SGF,

I never said you don't teach applications. I do not know what or how you teach. Quite frankly, I am glad to hear that you do. I was making a comment on the state of teaching at some schools.

It amazes me how there are people out there teaching Praying Mantis after only a few years of study. There is so much depth to this style that I believe it takes many many years of practice and analyzation to fully understand this system no matter who the sifu is. Now I am not directing this at you specifically so please don't feel like I am trying to allude to anything about you. Outside of your visit to my Sifu's school, I do not know you.

I agree that the student must learn to think how to make the style his/her own. There are so many techniques and options taught to a praying mantis stylist that he must figure out which ones work best for him in a given situation. However, I do not believe that it means that the student must figure out the applications on his own. How does he know he got it right? As much as it is an art, it is also a technical skill. One must know how to use his tools correctly and that can only be learned by being taught by someone qualified to do so. I have used this analogy before but I'll say it again: you can force a round peg into a square hole if you try hard enough but is it efficient or beneficial to do so? A student can find a way to make his interpretation of a technique work but does that make it right?

Open to exploration? Absolutely. Open to interpretation? Within the confines of the principles and theories of the system.

YM

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by Andy Miles
Its a difficult balance. . I taught my first batch of students with surgical detail. I gave them the mneumonic devices, training schedule, and diet, so they could just concentrate on training and be better than I was at the same amount of time. I cottled and encouraged. I let them throw me, so I could see where they were losing connection. I supervised every punch. They grew quickly. They gained abilites that took me months in a week.

In the end. I had students who couldn't explain things without using my words. They hit a plateau and never got past it. They were technicians, not martial artists. I crippled them from over nurturing. As lao tse said refering to governing, "Too much poking spoils the fish." You need to figure things out to make them your own. Otherwise, your a rigid drone and can't improvise. As a teacher, I needed to give them guidence, but allow them to do their own growing.

Andy,
I agree, it is a balance. There is guidance and then there is baby sitting. Students cannot be overly corrected. They have to be allowed to make mistakes. If I am corrected every single time I try to apply a technique, then all I will feel is frustrated. The student should understand that mistakes or failure is ok as long as they learn from the experience. I can honestly say that I am not able to effectively apply a technique 100% when I practice with my classmates. But when I can't I try to understand why. It doesn't mean that the technique doesn't work, usually I have done something wrong or I have to make an adjustment because of the situation. Or it could be that for that given instance, the distance between us or the size of the opponent, the technique is not the best option in that case. I do not believe every technique works all the time in every situation. It is important to recognize which technique to use given a specific scenario.

"They gained abilites that took me months in a week."

I do not believe martial arts, particularly the Praying Mantis style, is something that can be crammed. There is something to be said for gaining abilities over an extended amount of time. Time and work need to be put in to have gung fu. There are no shortcuts, no fast track. The student might physically be able to do something within a week but won't have the understanding gained from working on it for months.

YM

[mantis108]

Hi Seung Ga Faat and All,

As Young Mantis adeptly put (thanks for the input and I agree with you too), the comments are not directed at you but rather the methodology toward building Mantis skills. It is not personal by any mean. Please pardon, if I have offended you.

Personally, there is a huge difference between learning, or teach for that matter, self-defense skill and understanding plus building a system. It is a difference of how to Vs why so.

Kung Fu to a large degree is like math. You start with a supposition and work with different methods. Then you acquire formulas which would give you satisfying results all the time. You might also put a few theories together to form a larger theorum. Kung Fu to me works in similar manner and the margin for error is almost zero if exist at all. Classical Kung Fu systems are like that.

In case of Mantis the 12 keywords IMHO is the formula, expressed by drills for training purposes, for your style. It is a templet that articulate the traits of your style. If it is subjected to artistic licensing then why not abandant it altogether? Why bounded by it? I understand that are various ways of interpreting the 12 keywords such as looking at each word separately, Pairing them together, or even grouping them 4 as a group. There are also people, advanced practitioners, who would rather drop the whole thing. What they've achieved is Kung Fu in its purest form where styles really don't matter. But then I put to you what makes mantis mantis to begin with?

Andy's concern about students can't think for themselves and they are but the image of the teacher is legit. I also agreed that teaching is a balancing act. Moreover it is an art onto itself. However, like he said in a very short time they gained the knowledge that took him much longer to acquire. So they walk the walk. To me that's already something worthwhile. What Andy had offered them was the hands on experience that a responsible teacher of CMA must provide. Next they can talk the talk. Andy had shown the gateway. Now it is their turn to entire the path. I think CMA teachers today are way too concern about the Bruce Lee type of students. I have students who come armed with the "knowledge" from books and the internet. They certainly talk the talk. They even question the validity of drills and forms. Guess what? These are the people who end up believing in them and devour all of them. In fact, yearn for more. "Knowledge" gave them hopes and dreams. Kung Fu, Mantis Kung Fu, gives them reality check. The humbling effect is what classical Kung Fu systems have on people.

Once again to learn Mantis as a system, it is IMHO best to be holistic. Focus on the basics, drill the drills and mind the forms, and there are plenty of them. Why reinvent the wheel? Between creativity and artistic licensing, there is but a fine line. Anyway, that is just my take on the issue. I understand that to each their own.

Regards

Mantis108

[seung ga faat]

To All,
Do you see the principle combinations that I listed in the forms or not?
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[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Seung,

I do not understand.
There is too much information in your post.
Also, besides Yushan's first post I don't see why others wrote the responses they did.
So I don't understand their posts in relation to yours either.

I guess you are not trying to find different opinions on concepts here.
I don't see if you are trying to stimulate our thought so we have a deeper understanding or just trying to teach us.

Four points I don't comprehend.
-12 keywords.
differ greatly from school to school. You want to talk about these, but don't say which words your school uses.
Well, no matter. We can talk about the first three you did mention.

-But I don't see how the action of LO can be construed to mean gather.
I thought seize was a good translation.

-then adding the words step or throw.
There are many ways to interpret these word combinations and it isn't explained clearly so I am lost here.

-Then you say it is in Beng Bu.
So it is like puzzle peices for us to fiddle with.

I usually don't like to think that much all at once.

[BeiTangLang]

Right there with ya Tainan....just didn't feel like typing it all.

[Young Mantis]

I am sorry that my posts do not address the original topic. I was reacting to the comments made by Mantis108 so maybe that should have been it's own thread. It is also why I say it does not specifically pertain to Seung Ga Faat.

As to the original post and your points raised, I am not sure I follow your train of thinking as it pertains to Bung Bo. I also generally group ngou, lou, choi together so to add other words or actions in between these three specifically does not make much sense to me. I understand some people treat each keyword separately. I tend not to.

YM

[mantis108]

I realize I might have unintentionally alluded to that your method might be somewhat similar to the JKD approach. I understand that could be an insult to traditional Mantis stylist. For that I apologize. I also apologize for unintentionally putting you on the defense. However, it would be more clear about your method if you would give some concrete examples to the ideas that you are talking about. Like Tainan Mantis said there simply too much and too broad about what you proposed on the forum. As far as the 12 Keywords found in the Bung Bo, I would have thought that Sifu Lee Kam Wing is the one strong proponent of this concept. May I ask if you are from Chiu Chi Man's lineages? You have brought up a good topic for discussion. Hope that many will further benefit from it.

Best regards

Mantis108