12 Ideas for Body Movement

[seung ga faat]

I am not really on the defensive it is just than I am a horrible typist when it comes to using the keyboard to express myself.
108 yes I am from CCM Lineage. My Sifu learned from
Chui Luen,Sigung and visited CCM,Si-Taigung many times.
Let me simplify my original post. The keyword/principles are or can be used to define movement that occurs in the body,legs,and of course the arms/hands. My point is, they are principles of movement/action.For example; in Bung Bo you open with evade,parry & step followed by punch & Step.
Now let's look at the leg's and feet. The right leg and foot travel in a clockwise hooking pattern so that it lands behind your adversaries lead leg.
This step is followed by a step back in the direction you just came from but you are carrying you adversaries leg and picking it from it's foundation.
First the leg/foot hooks,then gathers,followed quickly by the pick/pluck.There are numerous variations to the BB form beginning but, this is the basic way taught at our kwoon without the jumping.
Maybe this is easier to understand.
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[mantis108]

Thank you for the clarification and thank you for sharing such an interesting concept. I think I see where you are coming from. Personally, I believe what you have said is where we find the stylistic differences in various PM even among students of the same school. Frankly, it is not about which is better or more profound. It is just different in combat approach IMHO.

It would seem to me that you have extended the 12 keywords are principles of body movement concept further. This concept is in my view quite popular among the HK 7 stars groups, which reflect their Jing Wu experience to a certain extent.

I am not sure about what the Mainland China 7 Stars groupes' perspective on it. May be Brendan could add something.

So far I have come across a few versions of 12 keywords. It would seem 8 Step is pretty much the only one that puts the body method (shan, Zhuan, Teng, and Nuo) right into the 12 keywords. The other versions are pretty indirect. In other words, the body method is only implied. The 12 keywords mainly cover techniques (sau fa/hands) IMHO. This created some space for imaginative interpretation if we seperate the 12 keywords from the rest of the important PM material such as the "Importances On Short Strikes" which is all about body method in relation to usage of moves. BTW, the "Importances On Short Strikes" can be found on the "Tanglang Lanjie Quan" book p. 15 by Shr Zhang Zhong and Yang Feng Shr. Things like long move short use and short move long use, etc... are covered by this very short paragraph. This is why I said holistic approach of PM is important.

Having said all that it doesn't mean that exploring the different concepts that which is your style's forte is out of the question. Like I have said before it is not a question of right/wrong, better/worst, etc... It is just different. If you can find what you need, more power to you. Certainly the 12 keywords are great conversation piece amongst the PM communities.

Best regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

I think I see the application.
Using the right foot to perform a dengpu(dengta) type throw.

But why use the term "go"?
There are so many instances where it is described as part of "hand techniques"

While the method you describe ...
"...carrying your adversaries leg and picking it from it's foundation..."
...clearly falls under tie kao.

Since tie kao are the last two of the 12 keywords why does one technique need to be described as "go" method as well as "tie kao" method?
Tie kao already includes all the methods where legs touch and takedowns involving legs are performed.

If you use "go" to describe this throw then how does this throw relate to "tie kao"?

[seung ga faat]

108 & TM,
Thanks for your responses. I will say more when I have more time to respond.
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[flem]

you guys ever break down the term analyze?

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
Are you trying to make fun of us?

[flem]

tainan,

no, just wondering

[mantisben]

Originally posted by seung ga faat
For example; in Bung Bo you open with evade,parry & step followed by punch & Step.
Now let's look at the leg's and feet. The right leg and foot travel in a clockwise hooking pattern so that it lands behind your adversaries lead leg.
This step is followed by a step back in the direction you just came from but you are carrying you adversaries leg and picking it from it's foundation.

Good technique.

I used to think of the 12 keywords in pairs. Now, I tend to think of each keyword individually. Not to say that I don't EVER think of the 12 keywords in pairs anymore. But looking at each keyword individually is definitely enriching my knowlege (what little I have) of Praying Mantis techniques for fighting.

[seung ga faat]

Now you are in mantis catches cicada act,followed by left rolling elbow-right gathering hand,left hook-outward hand,left ccw circling palm and suspend-crashing/piercing palm.(during this act the left arm/hand sticks to the adversaries right arm and seeks to break his arm and collar bone)(the right hand uses suptle controlling, gathering and plucking to gain leverage and the juen bo is used to stay ahead of the adversaries escapes and counters)
Let's see we have lean, hook,gather,suspend,crash/crush,beat and pluck along with,stick/cling & advance to name just a few principles all contained in this simple portion of the Bung Bo attack.
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[Young Mantis]

SGF,

I understand you are trying to find the 12 keywords in the BB form. I don't however follow your explanation of the techniques. I think it would be more clear if you could explain what your opponent is doing as well...in a sense, what is the ling side to your interpretation of this form? This would explain a lot about your choice of body position, footwork, and application.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Yeah,
It is tough to understand technique from reading.
One I find easy to read is like this...

Yi and Jia are the names given to the two opponents in most manuscripts of many different styles.

Yi and Jia: face off in left stance.
Yi: left straight punch
Jia: intercepts with left straight punch
Yi: presses said punch and sends right straight punch
Jia: intercepts with right straight punch

Double Seal

Yi: right hand grabs (Jia's right hand) and left hand grabs or presses(Jia's right elbow).
As Yi is doing this he jumps(lift right leg first) to his right and closer to Jia.
He places his left leg behind Jia's left leg.

If Jia moves back then...

[mantis108]

I am under the impression that SGF is describing using the Mantis Catches Cicada to deal with a right lead straight punch. He is looking at the nuances of the move and trying to associate the 12 keywords with them as much as possible. I surmise he's trying to come across the idea of Chai, which is to look at infinite changes that is available to a move. Chai, in WHF view, is not to repeat what is already taught in Ling and Pi stages but to look into other possiblities. In this case, SGF would be attempting to work with the 12 keywords of his style and from his lineage's perspective.

Just a thought

Mantis108

[Oso]

but

why could you not take the 12 key words (whatever they happen to be for you) and place them on x and y coordinates and then explore the combinations? certainly, some of them may not work together but wouldn't that be a good exercise?

from what reading I have done it seems that the 12 key words are usually paired in a linear fashion. why wouldn't you take 1,3,6 {for example} and work them together?(or see if they worked somehow)

just a curious thought.

[seung ga faat]

108,
yes,yes,yes........
Also the keywords are just words used to describe actions after they have happened.Artists always title their art after the fact.
Mantis a longfist art.The attacks are like one continuous or long fist.The attacks are movements and changes in movement these changes are described by the keywords.Movements are not bound by the keywords that one of the reasons for keys, they are to open locks and perhaps behind the locked doors is where the true treasure lies.
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[mantis108]

Thank you for the clarification and thanks for sharing your methodology.

Best regrads

Mantis108