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Thread: Bodhidharma

  1. #31
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    He was also one cool dude. Seriously. Bodidharma kicks ass.

    Are you actually AT Shaolin Temple right now? I'm heading down that way on the October holiday.
    Simon McNeil
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    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
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  2. #32

    Boddhidharma

    More likely- he took the southern sea route. There was considerable shipping from
    south India in those days. Likely--- Mahabalipuram- through the Malaysian straits to Cam Ranh Bay in Viet nam (which also devloped some mahayana/chan folks) on to Canton- before going north.

    He did not develop different styles of kung fu( the Chinese already had martial activities)- but pointed to the progressive conquest of body- mind and spirit. Without control of the body- the mind gets distracted. Without conquest of the mind- the spirit gets dispersed. Controlling the breath in different ways at different stages
    is also important in Buddhism including Chan.

    Chan is the sinicization of dhyan(sanskrit), zan(pali) as Zen is japanification of
    chan.

    joy chaudhuri

  3. #33
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    Stuff of legends.

    Ta Mo was originally rejected from the temple.
    He then sat in the cave for however long, lgend says 9 years, I am inclined to surmise that is nine lunar years or nine months...anyway.

    He was then allowed into the temple. He taught some exercises because the monks were not strong enough to do the arduous path of meditation for hours and hours on end.

    It is not know how he got to china. It is not known where he came from. He could have been from Nepal, He could have been from persia, he could be an archetype serving as a model to the rest who come in the order that they should follow the 8 fold path in the fashion of Bodhidharma.

    The Ta Mo story transforms and changes and gets little details changed every now and then.

    I find it to be an interesting tale, but of little value when it comes to actually doing kungfu.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  4. #34
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    The metaphor, man! Get the metaphor!!

    The controversy about Bodhidharma's factual existence is only a problem if you're a scientific literalist and if that's the case, you really shouldn't be practicing kung fu. Such skepticism would be better off in another martial art. To me, it's as absurd as the evolution vs. creation and attempted resolution through intelligent design. The lessons of the Bible are in no way challenged by the theory of evolution unless your a literalist. I can see them both coexisting in a single philosophy provided you take each one within its own proper context. That being said, the point of the Bodhidharma legend is the metaphor - there's an implicit lesson within that tale - one that is absolutely critical to understanding the heart and soul of kung fu. One of the faults of CMA is that warrior's ethics have never been formally codified, unlike the samurai codes like the Hakegure of Japan. This means our morality - our wude - is mostly passed down through metaphoric legends. I think the morality of kung fu is the most important thing, more important than the training itself. The training is just a tool to achieve the moral requirements. Personally, I'm very skeptical of the Bodhidharma legend, but I'm a staunch believer in its importance in CMA. Nothing could be more valuable.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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  5. #35
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    I actually believe he existed, and the over all story is probably true. I don't belive he sat in solid meditation for 9 years. My guess is he was living in the cave as his residence. I also don't believe the super natural stories of him such as the cutting of his eyelids and all. And if that IS true, then he was more of and old crazy than anything.
    Last edited by Royal Dragon; 09-13-2005 at 06:08 PM.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  6. #36
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    Cool Bodhidharma

    It is unclear which type of Buddhism existed at the Shaolin temple prior to Bodhidharma's arrival. It could have been Pureland sect for all we know. Pureland sect IMHO was the root of white lotus society (latter became White Lotus cult). So for Pureland sect to switch over to a brand new branch of Buddhism (Dhyana) it will need time. It would make sense for him to stay near by the temple for 9 years before he was accepted into the temple.

    Does it has to be a cave? I don't think so. I think it might be a Shaolin temple story as a cover up effort for first rejecting Chan Buddhism and later change to embrace it. Oh, Look we accept this Holy monk because he has been meditating in the cave for nine years. It's a face saving thing IMHO. What if they were to say "yeah, his determination to show us this new and improved Buddhism path is great and we couldn't resist his presistance for nine years (we were pretty dumb you know)." Which sounds better? The acceptance of the Holy monk of course.

    I believe it is possible that Bodhidharma built a dug out pit with a hut cover (18 x 9) according to the Kalaripayattu's tradition and practice Acruvedic medicines (the original bone cleansing classics). The supposed training procedure of Shaolin Tongzi Gong (virgin boy condition) is so uncanningly similar to that of Kalaripayattu.
    It is very hard to imagine they are not of the same source.

    So far no one is interested in finding out whether a hut as such ever existed near Shaolin because there is a legendary cave which may be viewed as evidence not proof. But still... Shaolin 1 fact 0.

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

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    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


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  7. #37
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    my 2 cents...

    Hi all,

    As my way of thingking, I believe that every legend has a shred of truth to them. Do the specifics matter? No that much if you come to think of it. Many legends are born to give credence to something that one can't explain as far as origins are concerned. One little example of this, to borrow from another civilization, could be the birth of Rome. Did Romulus and Remus exist? or did Romulus kill Remus to become the first king of Rome? Who knows...and we'll probably never solve the clue to that one. The fact is that something extraordinary happened to a small village on the Tiber in the mid 700's BC to give birth to what was to become one of the great civilizations in recorded human history.

    So I think it is with Damo and the CMA legends in general. They give us a sense of origin or starting point. In the years that are attributed to Damo and the Bak Siu Lam phenomenom something extrordinary must have happened in the realm of CMA to give it such importance. Gene made a nice point in stating to the fact that within the legends there are lessons to be learned. I would like to add that these legends also take us to a much simpler time when people lived by simple yet profound rules of wisdom which guided their every action. Having said thus, I am very proud to call myself a gung fu enthusiast and also a recent practitioner. Just some thoughts from yours truly.
    It is amazing for me to understand that "unexplainable" no longer has to mean "nonexistent". pp172
    Grave's End: A True Ghost Story by Elaine Mercado, R.N.

  8. #38
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    Uncle Remus and the Romulans

    I concur with your viewpoint, DRleungjan. After all, Rome wasn't built in a day.

    There is actually very little record of Bodhidharma beyond some passing references in the literature. There are some sutras attributed to Bodhidharma, two translations in English in fact (Red Pine's The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma and Jeffrey L. Broughton's The Bodhidharma Anthology: The Earliest Records of Zen). However the validity of these sutras as actually being from Bodhidharma is questionable. Some feel that it is reconstructed history, which was a favorite pastime for ancient Chinese writers. Clearly, Zen/Chan really begins at the Sixth Patriarch Huineng and many of the Bodhidharma skeptics believe that his position was established simply to tie Huineng back to Buddha. Nevertheless, I actually spent a night up at Bodhidharma's cave, reading Red Pine's translation and practicing, back in '95. That was a very spiritual night for me, one that I will carry for the rest of my life, despite any such revelations about historic inaccuracies.

    Where the Bodhidharma legend gets rather interesting is at Shaolin itself. Historically, he isn't venerated there as the founder of Shaolin martial arts until the 17th century (and that's from a Taoist source, no less). Prior to the Bodhidharma, Shaolin martial arts were attributed to Vajrapani, a Buddhist guardian.

    IN '97, I went to India to seek out the Kalaripayattu/Vajramukti/Bodhidharma connection. It wasn't fruitful and I'm very skeptical of these claims.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM
    He was also one cool dude. Seriously. Bodidharma kicks ass.

    Are you actually AT Shaolin Temple right now? I'm heading down that way on the October holiday.
    I am not at Shaolin Temple,
    My QQ is 7837489,you can contact me

  10. #40
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    I'm sorry but I don't use QQ. Do you use MSN or ICQ at all?
    Simon McNeil
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    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  11. #41
    My MSN:chinashaolintemple@hotmail.com

  12. #42
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    I've added you to my contact list.
    Simon McNeil
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    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  13. #43

    On Gene's posts on the Bodhidharma.

    Legends and myths are important teaching devices. I approach the Boddhidharma
    complex in a different way. In China there were different kinds of Buddhism before
    500 AD. But Boddhidharma's epistemology is starkly different- direct experience and mind to mind transmission. Its there in original Indian Buddhism- Kasyapa, the flower and the Buddha's smile. It is there in the rediscovery by Hui neng- direct observation.
    That particular tradition is distinctive- mimimal reliance on sutras. Those are the footprints of the Bodhidharma.
    That development from Kasyapa, nagarjuna in India , the first handed down sermon in Red Pine- the outline of practice- of Bodhidharma,and Hui neng in China, later Dogen in Japan - the epistemo;ogy is exactly the same. In Bodhidharma's time- Buddhism was strong in South India including mahayana in the dhyana tradition- Hindu revivavilism(including Shankara's non dualism) and common Brahminic fanaticism wiped out Budhism in the south and Hindu temples were built where Buddhist temples stood.

    There were different indians carrying different forms of Buddhism to China- one of them- spread the pure dhana/zana/ chan version- call him by whatever name you want.

    I doubt Bodhidharma's association with martial arts. China had martial arts before
    Bodhidharma. But it makes sense to introduce exercises and breathing discipline
    before dhyana.

    The kalaripayattu connection is far fetched. The hero of kalripayattu was Parasurama who with his axe was also known asa killer of ksattriyas.
    The uniqueness of the dhyan/chan doctrine in both India and China and the transmission compared to other kinds of Buddhism required unique kinds of teachers- by whatever name they can be known.

  14. #44
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    Smile Kalaripayattu & Southern Shaolin Parallels...

    Chan Buddhism in China became of age owes a lot to Hui Neng. This clear and distinct Chinese flavored Buddhism is proven in his most famous and well known poem. He also was said to have great comprehension of the Vajra Pranja Paramita (diamond) sutra which was also given to him by his teacher as a proof of him being the 6th patriacrh. The sutra is IMHO loosely base on the classic Hindu tale of "churning the milk ocean at the beginning of time". Bodhidharma was also accredited to have brought the sutra with him.

    The importance of this is that Bodhiharma might have been amongst those Brahim elites that converted or rather being deemed as "defected" to Buddhism and starting to reinterpreting some of the traditional Hindu tale/teaching resulting in new Buddhist sutras such as the Vajra Pranja Paramita. So his travelling could really have been more like an excile from his homeland.

    Parasurama and Buddha are both considered descends of Vishnu the Preserver who is also mentioned in the VPP sutra if I am not mistaken. BTW, Buddha in his conversation with his disciple in the sutra made it clear that he rather be not viewed as Vishnu's descend. So in essence, there is not real conflict from the newly converted Buddhist (ie Bodhidharma) point of view to keep certain Hindu traditions and teachings. Besides that were supposedly 108 schools of Kalaripayattu and not all of them would be hostile to Buddhist IMHO. I have the impression that the Brahims similar to the Jewish Rabais were extremely uncomfortable with the idea of a Priest King who might eventually upset the balance of power and their status would be totally in jeopardy but as always there are those who sympathize with the "enemy". This could be why we have the Bodhidharma episode.

    Anyway, the agricultural economic base community structure in southern India is remarkably similar to that of southern China. There are striking resemblance between a Kalari and a Kwoon (ie alters, MA training, medicine, etc) Is this just pure coincidences? I think there are more to the story.

    Just some thoughts.

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  15. #45

    Mantis 108

    I think that you are going pretty far afield in your speculation.

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