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Thread: Bodhidharma

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis108
    The importance of this is that Bodhiharma might have been amongst those Brahim elites that converted or rather being deemed as "defected" to Buddhism and starting to reinterpreting some of the traditional Hindu tale/teaching resulting in new Buddhist sutras such as the Vajra Pranja Paramita. So his travelling could really have been more like an excile from his homeland.

    Parasurama and Buddha are both considered descends of Vishnu the Preserver who is also mentioned in the VPP sutra if I am not mistaken. BTW, Buddha in his conversation with his disciple in the sutra made it clear that he rather be not viewed as Vishnu's descend. So in essence, there is not real conflict from the newly converted Buddhist (ie Bodhidharma) point of view to keep certain Hindu traditions and teachings.
    Though this much is essentially correct it does not follow that Kalariapayattu was one such tradition. Thus this is in the realm of idle speculation. Especially since martial arts did already exist in China at the time of Bodidharma. There is no need for a Kalariapayattu connection.
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  2. #47
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    Cool Speculations...

    Be that as it may, a health dose of speculation may bring about new insights. Fortune favors the bold, my friends.

    my point is that we can sit there and look at the availabe evidence (not proof) that he was a mere travelling monk who was rejected by the Imperical court at the time and eventually arrived at Shaolin neighborhood and taught his knowledge. We can either except or ignore the rest of the tale that he taught some form of exercises to the monk for proper Dhyana practice. But then I find that kind of conclusion oppotunistic and selective. Otherwise, we can simply conclude that he had nothing to do with martial arts. I think this idea suits the pacificist Buddhist scholars more so than anything else. What good is that kind of conclusion to the study of martial arts? If that's your believe, then by all means stick to it. I don't think that helps in solving anything personally.

    I am not denying that martial arts and the methodology that help transmit them exsited in China long before Bodhidharma's time. We can call that Chinese martial arts or Wushu in general. But an unique and distinct methodology that is derived from Hindu tradition (ie Kalaripattyu) is the source of what I would consider as Kung Fu. Having said that this is to acknowledge Chan Buddhism being one of the most influential systems of thoughts in Chinese martial arts. Alternately, we can look at Kung Fu being a product of cult movements (ie White Lotus) using Shaolin name as a cover or symbolic figure head. If so we can understand the role of the myth of Bodhidharma plays in that case as well. Now we all know that the cult thing really wouldn't sit well with most everyone. So ... Still can we ignore the evidences of that? Again, I think not. Personally, something that isn't recorded in offical history books or taught in public schools doesn't essentically make it invalid or irrelevant. The irony is that Kung Fu is just such a thing.

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


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  3. #48

    Mantis 108

    Lots of martial arts in the roots of Hindu traditions. Gautama himself being froma royal a family had it as part of his training as a kid. The Boddhidharma's Pallava roots meant that royal family members had martial arts teachers.

    Lots of Hindu things that were "universal" in character passed on into Buddhism-
    a more universal way than Hinduism. Buddhism is just Buddhism- epistemologically its
    not limited to any one nation.... though localism is there in the cultural accretions.
    Aspects of yoga, aspects of breathing disciplines, astronomy, aspects of concepts of the body, astronomy(108) have parallels in Hinduism and Buddhism.

    Hinduism and Buddhism both have conceptions of "self defense" ... but there is a key difference- the concepts of the self are radically different. No first strike in the Buddha way IMO. But CMA as a way to illumination is nota contradiction IMO. The Buddhists in Ladakh still have lessons in archery.

    There are parallels in Indian and Chinese martial arts- both have had concepts of prana and chi flow- hitting points- dim mak points.marmas, body structure-dan tien/manipuram chakra, animal symbolisms. HOWEVER, there are so many quite different engines in the rich variety of Chinese martial arts- on how pwer is generated eyc- that any direct connecto kalaripayattu seems faint - from where I sit. (There were other martial arts besides kalaripayattu)

    Joy Chaudhuri
    Last edited by Vajramusti; 09-19-2005 at 07:54 AM. Reason: key board error

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mantis108
    It would make sense for him to stay near by the temple for 9 years before he was accepted into the temple.

    Does it has to be a cave? I don't think so. I think it might be a Shaolin temple story as a cover up effort for first rejecting Chan Buddhism and later change to embrace it. Oh, Look we accept this Holy monk because he has been meditating in the cave for nine years. It's a face saving thing IMHO. What if they were to say "yeah, his determination to show us this new and improved Buddhism path is great and we couldn't resist his presistance for nine years (we were pretty dumb you know)." Which sounds better? The acceptance of the Holy monk of course.

    I believe it is possible that Bodhidharma built a dug out pit with a hut cover (18 x 9) according to the Kalaripayattu's tradition and practice Acruvedic medicines (the original bone cleansing classics). The supposed training procedure of Shaolin Tongzi Gong (virgin boy condition) is so uncanningly similar to that of Kalaripayattu.
    It is very hard to imagine they are not of the same source.

    So far no one is interested in finding out whether a hut as such ever existed near Shaolin because there is a legendary cave which may be viewed as evidence not proof. But still... Shaolin 1 fact 0.

    Mantis108
    Hi Mantis108,

    I am doing certain research and thought about your post, so I thought I'll stir the pot a bit.

    The theory is interesting except you never visited the cave. here's the problem, the cave might have good fengshui and without visiting it or at least inspecting the local geographic feature near the cave, you can't say either way. but, if it had good fengshui, there's several good reasons to stay in the cave for several years.

    http://www.dzogchenlineage.org/caves.html

    Many tantra masters chose to retreat and practice in cave during important time of their training. Beside the benefit of seclusion, there is certain "extra" benefits.

    The cave used by Guru Rinpoche Padmasambhava is often used by Tibetan Masters even today. Some claims to have achieve an "extra" something.

    This is similar to the classical daoist practice of using "di ling" to speed up their accomplishment. Zhang tian shi did this as well. either, everybody like to tell the same type legend or may be there's something about caves. so, may be it is shaolin 1 and fact 1, win-win, I say, eh.

  5. #50
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    Smile Hi Wander Monk,

    Thanks for the link. It's pretty interesting. I can understand where you are coming from and it is true that I have not visited the cave to check the Fengshui. So I believe it would be better for me to keep my theory to the extend that I have laid out.

    I appreciate your sharing of the info., my friend.

    Warm regards

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  6. #51
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    the tamo story does teach a couple of things to the seeker of kungfu.

    for me, the lessons are:

    diligence in practice
    mindfulness in practice
    purpose in practice

    The rest is not relevant for me as a martial artist.
    Those three points are HUGE for any martial artist.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #52
    hmmm... do i dare get into this discussion again...
    Funny thing is that in my experience most reasonably educated Chinese practitioners recognize the Bodhidharma myth AS myth while Westerners cling to it dogmatically. That is, except for the Chinese who make money off of selling this myth back to Westerners; I'm assuming that's where the OP falls. Even in the Shaolinsi wushu baike quanshu, an encyclopedia of Shaolin written by a Shaolin monk there is an essay explaining that Bodhidharma did not teach martial arts. I translated it a few years ago for this forum, you can find it here:
    http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=20750
    I recently presented a paper at a Buddhist studies conference on 9th-10th century text preserved in the Daoist canon attributing various immortality techniques to Bodhidharma. These techniques had nothing to do with India or Buddhism, and had existed in China for centuries before Buddhism even arrived. Already a few hundred years after his death, people were using his name to propagate their own beliefs. It only gets worse after that, and the ultimate hoax was the so-called Yijin/Xisui jing. It's extremely common to rely on the name of a famous figure from the past in order to attempt to legitimate a new technique or teaching. If you really want to know more about these people, there are many credible scholars who have done serious research on them. Jeffrey Broughton, Bernard Faure, John McRae (especially his latest book _Seeing Through Zen_), just to name a few. Also Xu Zhedong and Tang Hao, if you can read Chinese. All (most) available in your local public university library.
    Someone mentioned that this is just the agenda of pacifist Buddhist scholars. Well I will agree that most Buddhists don't find this story very credible . I took refuge in a monastery in S. Taiwan and I spoke to many of the monks and nuns about this story; they didn't really buy it. When I was researching this late Tang Daoist text I also came across several critiques written by prominent Chan monks insisting that Bodhidharma would not have engaged in such vulgar bodily practices. It was asked, "What good is that kind of conclusion to the study of martial arts?" I could just as easily ask that of those people who propagate this nonsense. How does blindly clinging to a story for which there is no real evidence, or making fantastic speculations with no concrete proof help advance the study of Chinese martial arts?
    I agree with Gene about the importance of the metaphor. These stories are really great stories and I understand that many of us got into CMA because of them. But after you cross the river, you can't carry the raft on your back forever. The art speaks for itself, if people only want to practice it because it was supposedly created by some larger-than-life spiritual superman, well...

    P.S. what's a scientific liberalist? and why are skepticism (or simply the faculty to think critically, as I like to see it) and practicing CMA mutually exclusive? there's so much BS in CMA today that you could waste an entire lifetime if you're not critical enough.
    Last edited by beiquan; 10-10-2005 at 03:05 AM.

  8. #53
    More fun with facts:

    Quote Originally Posted by mantis108
    Chan Buddhism in China became of age owes a lot to Hui Neng.
    Or so his "disciple" and champion Shenhui, who brought this little-known monk out of obscurity in order to champion his "Southern" brand of Chan and discredit the then-6th patriarch, Shenxiu (recognized by Hongren and the Tang government), would have you believe. See Yampolsky's translation of the Dunhuang MS of the Platform scripture, or John McRae's recent _Seeing Through Zen_.

    the Vajra Pranja Paramita (diamond) sutra ... Bodhidharma was also accredited to have brought the sutra with him.
    The only sutra with which Bodhidharma has been associated is the Lankavatara. The definitive translation of the VPP was done by Kumarajiva in the early 5th century, over a hundred years before Bodhidharma arrived.

    Parasurama and Buddha are both considered descends of Vishnu the Preserver who is also mentioned in the VPP sutra if I am not mistaken.
    Yes, in fact, you are mistaken. Not sure what relevance this fact would have were it indeed true.

    So in essence, there is not real conflict from the newly converted Buddhist (ie Bodhidharma) point of view to keep certain Hindu traditions and teachings.
    Except that even the most basic Buddhist scriptures teach that "Hinduism" - specifically Saivism and Vaisnavism - is waidao - heterodox, heretical.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

  9. #54
    This is assuredly a fascinating discussion, but one which will never reach an agreed upon conclusion. This is because conclusions are reached through assumptions, that is, principles, ideas, facts we accept as true, but which cannot be verified as ACTUALLY true! We may all have our own ideas and beliefs and we are entitled to them, but the truth is we will never really know what happened. Even if we accept one opinion as more plausible than another at some level it will still be based upon un-provable information and therefore still speculation!

    To me what is most important are the principles of Chan and not who or where they came from. Fanciful stories are interesting and entertaining and may contain psychological metaphor; however, they are not necessary to understanding or practicing Chan and cannot be proven one way or the other anyway! To discuss various opinions can be fun, but will never lead to validated facts, just accepted facts.

    If the principles of Chan are valid, then they will withstand testing, examination and personal practice! Someone said that transmission takes place directly from person to person. While this maybe the tradition of some, clinging to the idea of formal transmission from mind to mind as the only method of direct perception is attachment to form. This is not the teaching of Hui-Neng!

    There is a well-known painting found on the cover of “The Diamond Sutra & The Sutra of Hui-Neng” by A. F. Price and Wong Mou-lam. Painted by Liang K’ai in the 13th century, it illustrates Hui-Neng tearing up a sutra. This does not merely communicate the principle that sutras are not necessary for realization, but that all types of formalized training or conditioning are unnecessary. Realization, or direct unsullied perception, is a personal condition that is stimulated by the world system, but the action occurs within the mind. As such, an acceptance of any one version as to the origins of Chan or its historical transmission to China is un-necessary to achieve realization. To accept and argue over un-provable history is likewise an attachment to form and according to the teachings of Hui-Neng, to be avoided.

    While we are enjoying the spirited debate let us not forget the teachings of Chan!

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  11. #56
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    Dam mo/Bodhidharma

    HI,
    Ive been doing some research in to Bodhidharma but I'm getting some mixed results. All I know so far is that
    1 - it took him 7 years to burn thru a mountain with his eyes,
    2 - he was in indian prince.
    3 - he was around in 500ad (ish)

    I have a lot of questions, but if anyone has a link to a slightly more factual website I'd really like to read it.

    Q's

    - Was Bodhidharma a hindu?
    - did he teach the shaolin monks healing exercises? - what were they called?
    - is Bodhidarma the founder of Buddhism or was it there before?

    Sorry if these are a bit Noobie style questions but Its pretty had to find someone who knows what there talking about.

  12. #57
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    This is a pretty good website with some good links and articles.
    Happy reading!
    http://www.buddhanet.net/

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by shizenjin View Post
    HI,
    Ive been doing some research in to Bodhidharma but I'm getting some mixed results. All I know so far is that
    1 - it took him 7 years to burn thru a mountain with his eyes,
    2 - he was in indian prince.
    3 - he was around in 500ad (ish)

    I have a lot of questions, but if anyone has a link to a slightly more factual website I'd really like to read it.

    Q's

    - Was Bodhidharma a hindu?
    - did he teach the shaolin monks healing exercises? - what were they called?
    - is Bodhidarma the founder of Buddhism or was it there before?

    Sorry if these are a bit Noobie style questions but Its pretty had to find someone who knows what there talking about.


    Well, he didn't exactly burn through a mountain with his eyes, he wasn't necessarily an Indian Prince and yes, he was around by all acounts in and around the 6th century CE.

    To the Q's

    No. He was the alleged founder of the Ch'an sect of Buddhism. Known more widely as Zen.

    He reputedly taught Dhayana (Ch'an/Zen) exercises some commonly known today as qigongs. The legends have it that he taught the Bone Marrow Washing Classic (xi sui jing) and the Muscle Tendon Change Classic (yi jin jing).

    It follows that this is seen as the foundational work that began what followed and is known as Shaolin Kung Fu which is inclusive of qigongs such as mentioned, martial arts, medicinal practices and most importantly Ch'an Buddhism.

    He is not the founder of Buddhism. He is considered the founder of Ch'an (zen) Buddhism. The first patriarch of the sect. Followed by many and spread around the world in the here and now.

    Buddhism bears it's name from Shakyamuni Buddha, Siddarhtha Guatama (circa 500BCE) A hindu prince. There is a lot of material available on this person including a complete(mostly) and consistent (fairly) account of his birth, life and death.

    Where else are you going to start? The internet is a good place , provided you do go to the right place. there are many buddhist and buddhism related websites. Zen Buddhism will have the story in context to the experience of the Japanese and their recieving of the transmission. The Koreans have Zen as well, as do many other asian countries which actively practice it as it has been in their traditions for where ever they fell in the 1500 year timeline since bodhidharma.

    anyway... all this can be gleaned from just about anywhere in relation to zen buddhism or shaolin kungfu.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  14. #59
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    http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?90.xml+id('b9054-6469')

    Bodhidharma

    Senses:
    # (d. 536?; also 達摩). The putative founder of the Chan school 禪宗 in China. He is said to have come from India to teach the direct transmission from mind to mind, not relying on scriptural sources 不立文字. The Chan school records him as having passed his enlightenment down to a succession of disciples, who are called the patriarchs of the Chan school. According to his traditional biography he was the scion of a South Indian royal family, 28th in a direct line of transmission from Śākyamuni, whose master (the 27th patriarch) told him to transmit the dharma to China. He went there by the perilous sea route, arriving in the region of Canton in the early C6. He proceeded to Jiankang, where he had his famous dialogue with Liang Wudi 梁武帝, which ended with him telling the emperor that all his munificent donorship would gain him no merit. He then went North, crossing the Yangzi on a reed, and went into retirement on Mt. Song near Luoyang (site of Shaolin Temple), where he meditated constantly for nine years in a cave. Tradition also has it that he was the originator of the martial arts of the Shaolin monks. Huike 慧可, a literatus of no mean accomplishment as well as a Buddhist monk, came to him and cut off his arm to show his ardor for the dharma, and received transmission, becoming the 29th patriarch and 2nd in the Chinese lineage. First mention of Bodhidharma in the extant historical record is found in the Luoyang qielan ji 洛陽伽藍記, (Record of the Buddhist Temples of Luoyang), written around 547; in this text, Bodhidharma appears as a pious and well-traveled foreign pilgrim whose astonishment at the Buddhist architecture of Luoyang is therefore even greater testament to the brilliance of the city than any mere Chinese testament. If any of the texts that we now have come directly from Bodhidharma's hand or reflect his teachings, then it is probably those translated by Broughton which were recovered at Dunhuang; among those the Erru sixing lun 二入四行論 may be the best candidate for the title of 'the Ur-text of Chan' . [m.radich]

    http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/clubs/bud...huineng10.html

    list of Ch'an school's patriach before bodhidharma

    From the Buddha Sakyamuni, the Law was transmitted to the:

    1st Patriarch Arya Mahakasyapa (It was then in turn transmitted to)
    2nd Patriarch Arya Ananda
    3rd Patriarch Arya Sanavasa
    4th Patriarch Arya Upagupta
    5th Patriarch Arya Dhritaka
    6th Patriarch Arya Michaka
    7th Patriarch Arya Vasumitra
    8th Patriarch Arya Buddhanandi
    9th Patriarch Arya Buddhamitra
    10th Patriarch Arya Parsva
    11th Patriarch Arya Punyayasas
    12th Patriarch Bodhisattva Asvaghosa
    13th Patriarch Arya Kapimala
    14th Patriarch Bodhisattva Nagarjuna
    15th Patriarch Kanadeva
    16th Patriarch Arya Rahulata
    17th Patriarch Arya Sanghanandi
    18th Patriarch Arya Sangayasas
    19th Patriarch Arya Kumarata
    20th Patriarch Arya Jayata
    21st Patriarch Arya Vasubandhu
    22nd Patriarch Arya Manura
    23rd Patriarch Arya Haklenayasas
    24th Patriarch Arya Sinha
    25th Patriarch Arya Vasiastia
    26th Patriarch Arya Punyamitra
    27th Patriarch Arya Prajnatara
    28th Patriarch Arya Bodhidharma (the first Patriarch in China)
    29th Patriarch Grand Master Hui Ke
    30th Patriarch Grand Master Seng Can
    31st Patriarch Grand Master Dao Xin
    32nd Patriarch Grand Master Hung Ren
    dazed and confused

  15. #60
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    Buddhism was in China before Bodhidharmas arrival. Actually, quite a while before and so, he was the first patriarch of Ch'an, but not of Buddhism in China as indicated by the list provided above.

    Ch'an is certainly not the only form of Buddhism that was and is in China.
    There is also some argument about Hui neng being the 6th patriarch due to a face off between Shen-hsui (600-706) and Shen-hui (670-762).

    Historically, Shen-hui prevaled and Hui-neng sprang from that to form the New Ch'an and during the Tang dynasty the different branches of Ch'an became established. two notable masters of these new branches were Lin-chi and ts'ao-tung with other less notable masters also contributing to the spread of Ch'an.

    There are different schools of practice of Ch'an(zen). some that are familiar are the long slow path and the sudden path. these are the brightest examples of differences in thinking in regards to practice. The fundamental goal of Ch'an remains virtually the same in all it's aspects though. and taht's another thing entirely.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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