Qigong and Yoga

[Vapour]

o.k. I know correct translation of yoga is kung/gong hence it simply means work or exercise. So Qigong is expercise of ki/energy. So what type of training/exercise/work yoga is aiming at?

[prana]

I still dont really understand the question, but I will just assume you are talking about similar exercises in yoga that are also performed in qi-gong.

It is really quite similar, to be honest, they may have different aims and uses, but they use the same vehicle of prana to achieve it. I cant speak for the literally thousands of yoga forms out there, but if there I might just sum it up by saying

The union between body and mind is usually the goal, and it usually begins with the breath.

I dont mean to open a can of worms, but qi-gong is just a yoga form that was brought to China, perhaps via Mangolia or olden day India. Whatever the matter, its use in martial arts is a huge step forward for martial artists.

[davethedragon]

i would agree with prana's explanation both are methods to enhance prana or chi (which are essentially the same thing) through the body/mind/energy connection.
and i love both of em!!

[Vapour]

O.K. let me be more specific.

Here is a quote from Zheng Man Qing.

"Moreover, taichi stresses sinking your chi to the tantien extrapolated from Lao Tzu's concept of concentrating your chi to become soft and young. The Taoist phrase, "The waterwheel spins backward," depicts the flow of chi as it travels up your spinal Tu Meridian, passing first through your wei-lu then the Jade Pillow, and on up to your ni-wan point. This process is called "Opening the Three Gates" and is explained in the Taichi Classics: "When your wei-lu is centered and straight your spirit can rise to your headtop." Seminal energy is worked until it transmutes into spirit - which probably proceeds from within the bones. Conversely, Bodhidharma's arts as explained in his "Sinew Changing" and "Marrow Cleansing" classics do develop chi, but the chi is allowed to proceed along its natural course up your frontal Jen Meridian to your face. The chi hardens because it follows your sinews and vessels without changing into spirit - attributes of an external system"

Now, my taijiquan instructor do Iron Shirt Neigon. When I hit him, his body was like baloon. On the other hand, for what I can see, hard/external style Neigon seems to turn your body into steel.

Moreover, my experience of yoga is that thought it has as much internal aspect as Qigong, it is a hard arts where one must get the structure right then relax internally.

So would this contrast between Shaolin and Wudang kung fu apply to Yoga and Qigong.

Plus, the above quote make no sense to me at all. Can anyone explain to me what the difference between hard and soft chi.

[prana]

Let me try my best to explain this, although some things you are saying are very specific to tai-ji training and I do not necessarily understand the translation is...

Originally posted by Vapour
O.K. let me be more specific.

Here is a quote from Zheng Man Qing.

"Moreover, taichi stresses sinking your chi to the tantien extrapolated from Lao Tzu's concept of concentrating your chi to become soft and young. The Taoist phrase, "The waterwheel spins backward," depicts the flow of chi as it travels up your spinal Tu Meridian, passing first through your wei-lu then the Jade Pillow, and on up to your ni-wan point. This process is called "Opening the Three Gates" and is explained in the Taichi Classics: "When your wei-lu is centered and straight your spirit can rise to your headtop." Seminal energy is worked until it transmutes into spirit - which probably proceeds from within the bones. Conversely, Bodhidharma's arts as explained in his "Sinew Changing" and "Marrow Cleansing" classics do develop chi, but the chi is allowed to proceed along its natural course up your frontal Jen Meridian to your face. The chi hardens because it follows your sinews and vessels without changing into spirit - attributes of an external system"

I think the class of yoga you are speaking of has much to do with forms of breath manipulation. Essentially, if your mind is free from duality, the mind will naturally enter into the center channel and up into the head. This is the process of birth and the process of death. In fact, this subtle energy passage is contnuously happening, and everyday in the process cycle of sleep and awake.

Here in, many "yogas" (I refer to the specific yogas such as anu) either manipulate the mind directly to affect non-duality or directly affect the breathe with the knowledge that the single pointed mind is the guidance of prana. I think you can imagine what I am saying, the relationship between the duality of the mind and the path of qi is undifferential in the unenlightened being.

Now, my taijiquan instructor do Iron Shirt Neigon. When I hit him, his body was like baloon. On the other hand, for what I can see, hard/external style Neigon seems to turn your body into steel.

I am not too versed on the concept of hard/soft qi-gong, but there are plenty of practitioners here that do, such as dezhen and Repulsive Monkey and more...

Moreover, my experience of yoga is that thought it has as much internal aspect as Qigong, it is a hard arts where one must get the structure right then relax internally.

So would this contrast between Shaolin and Wudang kung fu apply to Yoga and Qigong.

Shaolin religious Qi-Gong practise emphasises the non-duality of mind. Although it is not much followed these days, the students go through a stage of preliminary practise of visualising or paying homage to the Buddha. Students who have mastered this non-duality will then enter into the generation stage yogas and then taught to channel energy into their dan-tien with their though as the vehicle.

Nowadays, practitioners take up the practise of breath manipulation and the fundamental practise is learning the breathe into the dan-tien.

There is a key hidden difference in the two that I would rather not talk about, but it is, in all cases, very very similar.

Plus, the above quote make no sense to me at all. Can anyone explain to me what the difference between hard and soft chi.

In summary, really, a lot of the differences in yogas comes to a final goal, and that goal is to achieve the ability to willingly move their energy into the central channels, and evoke the mother and father elements and achieve ultimate wisdom of the indestructable truth about all life forms, what Buddhist call the Buddha Nature or sometimes interpreted by the word Bodhicitta (which is also used to describe the meditation of selflessness and loving kindness). Another explanation you might choose to use is that of sombogakhaya and dharmakaya.

[Vapour]

?????????

Now you lost me. Zheng Man Qing was a famous Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor and from what I know, he is not talking about mind but specific issue of Chinese physiology from qi perspective.

Zheng Man Qing's quote indicate that there is a specifict difference in a way chi/ki is channlelled in Shaolin Kung Fu and Wudang Kung Fu. This difference seems to manifest into different quality of ki/chi, which seems to manifest into different nature of Neigon. And when I say difference in manifestation, this seems to specifically refer to physical manifestation as opposed to meditative/mind manifestation.

I have seem my instructor's Neigon being very soft which seems to have distinctively differet quality from Shaolin style Neigon. Can anyone explain the mechanism in which such differnce occurs. It will help if anyone have done both soft and hard Iron Shirts Neigong.

Second question is whether this difference in channeling of chi could be similarly described as an principle difference between Qigong and Yoga. As we know, Qigon is so much softer than Yoga just like tajiquan is so much softer than Shaolin Kung fu. In such case, it will not be correct to state that Qigong is Chinese version of Yoga.

[ZIM]

An article that MAY help- no guarantees, of course.

he is not talking about mind but specific issue of Chinese physiology from qi perspective

Mind/body is a duality, so the conception of how you're reading it *may* be a little off- maybe thats the sticking point. Tho I confess that the excerpt is rather mystifying to me, also...

[dezhen2001]

from the little i have experienced "hard" qigong is also a misleading term - as there are many types, some more "external" and concerned with conditioning mainly, others more "internal" dealing with issuing energy and power, specifically using breathing and forms of meditaiton to balance the physical exercises/training.

i have seen some people who do all the things like hitting their palm or fist on various things, bamboo against themselves etc. yet there doesnt seem to be any "breath" training? infact, it just seems like body conditioning.

The skill i train is different to this, and although we use objects to hit ourselves mainly as far as i have experienced, its to help us understand how to issue power to protect or use offensively. specifically using breathing and meditation techniques as well.

We say hard qigong develops the "bones, tendons and skin", but it has to be in that order or else you are hollow. It is also a metaphor from inside to outside. If you just train conditioning and dont have a clear body from blockages and have a developed potential, eventually u will be damaged. Thats why inside is most important.

yes my body has got a little denser, but my body is still soft and supple. infact one exercise we always do when training is specifically to loosen off the whole body after training and to relax.

Also meditation and relaxation is a very important part. So "soft" and "hard" are not mutually exclusive (at least in my skill).

i also train in soft qigong every day. I agree the attitude and way of doing things is different, because Neigong/hard qigong has an obvious martial aspect, soft qigong does not, though it is there in some skills too.

just my random thoughts,
how this relates to yoga i have no idea, prana just mentioned my name coz i train both

dawood

[Vapour]

Does anyone know good Yoga Forum? I will post the same question there and post link to that thread here.

[SevenStar]

what is the difference in internal development between these two?

[lkfmdc]

It really depends who you talk to, different traditions say different things....

This is going to get complicated real fast, but let's start first with how Chinese often talk about "internal work"

medical
religious
martial art

NONE of these is cut and dry. Many martial art traditions got their internal work from religious and medical methods. Many martial art methods found their way back into religious sects...

Yoga also has different branches, different traditions and different schools

Raja or royal yoga was a life style, but yoga itself is a general term meaning "union" and is related to the English work "yoke" or to bind. Yoga is to become "one"

Various Yogi have said this means different things, one with YOURSELF, one with NATURE, many today, to appeal to westerners, say one with G'd

Similarly, Taoist Chi Gong has been said to either 1) make you literally immortal (not die) or to 2) make you "one with the Tao" (which could mean one with the Jade Emperor, ie a god, or one with teh correct path, or one with the universe/nature

Depending upon the Buddhist school, you can be doing Chi Kung to strengthen your body for meditation, or to literally make yourself a Lo Han!!!! That may mean depending upon the tradition, becoming an imortal (like the Taoist Sin Yan) or simply making yourself no longer exist!!!

Theory and religion aside, on a practical level the many techniques both share is quite astounding. They are really sort of one and the same. You have both posture and breath, movement and stillness, alll which have quantifiable physical results and benefits....

Remember, Yoga includes Asana (posture, including movement) and Pranayana (breathing), then later there is deep meditation and contemplation

[FuXnDajenariht]

They both have the same goal from what i've read about. I just found out that Yoga can be dangerous though, just like qiqong. Yoga can really mess you up physically and mentally if you dont have a proper teacher. Sinces its been marketed in America its been watered down for the yuppy crowd and they go in not knowing its true purpose. The purpose is not for relaxation or to stretch your muscles like most of them believe. Thats just a necessary side effect of good practice.

Seeing as qiqong basically originated from India but was adapted for Chinese culture i dont think you can go wrong either way. Both of them work to develop your mind, and control your bodies energy throught postures and meditation. Same difference so to speak.

[Chang Style Novice]

Dangerous? How?

Except for maybe getting an incompetent instructor or overexerting yourself because you don't understand your current limits, I don't see it.

[emre]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
Seeing as qiqong basically originated from India but was adapted for Chinese culture

That's simply not true. Chinese have always had their own Qigong systems. Over time, some stuff came over from India and Tibet and was assimilated into some of the existing methods.

[emre]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Dangerous? How?

Except for maybe getting an incompetent instructor or overexerting yourself because you don't understand your current limits, I don't see it.

Pranayama and meditation can be dangerous if you do it incorrectly. Ever heard of something called the "Kundalini pyschosis"?