Wing Chun and ISLAM

[foolinthedeck]

hi all.
recently we had a Muslim student at our school.
he said that he could not train with us though because we all bow to each other as a measure of respect.
Its against his religion he said.
I presume its becuase one should only bow before Allah.

has anyone else experienced this?
are there any Muslim Wing Chun heroes out there?

its interesting, this cultural / religious difference, you wouldnt have thought it would be a big deal until you come across it.

when you think about it, should christians have a problem with bowing to each over and not god?

this is not an anti-islamic thread, so please keep any ethnocentric views to yourselves.ta

[dezhen2001]

hey mate... im muslim

but then again we dont bow in our group as u know.

Theres a difference between doing the ruku/sujud and bowing to each other as a sign of respect. For a start physically Ruku is a bend at around 90 degrees with hands on your knees... Sujud is a full prostration on the ground with forehead, nose, palms, knees and feet touching the ground.

The most important thing though is your intention. Whats your intention for doing that? (in islam we say God looks to your heart and intention) is it because its something cultural? Are you forced to do it? Is there any other way to show respect that is mutually beneficial? Why is it a problem? - is your ego so great that you dont want to be "below" anyone but God?(even though islam tells us to follow and respect those in authority in the community we live) - Are you so unsure of your faith that you can get bowing for kung fu and when praying mixed up? There are a lot of things... its all on your intention and understanding.

it also depends on which group he belongs to... some can be rather restrictive even though islam tells us to be the "middle" and to respect those who have authority.

China has a population of Muslim born Chinese called Hui - so wonder what they do? (they have such kung fu as Cha Quan, Xinyi Liuhe Quan and others as well as some were quite famous i think).

i think if he sincerely wants to join then its worth talking to him about it and really trying to find out why he thinks this and also if there is a way around it. Even if he wants to talk to me ask him to contact me on dezhen2001@yahoo.co.uk

hope thats a small help!
dawood

[kj]

Religious views in all denominations and faiths will have a broad range of manifestations. I don't think we can fairly characterize people, or the strictness of their habits by denomination or faith alone.

I have heard that for some Orthodox Jews, for example, that the men are forbidden to attend classes with females; working with women in a Wing Chun class would be strictly forbidden. Yet many of us train alongside other Jewish partners on a regular basis.

I myself am a Christian, and know that beliefs of what is allowable or prudent for professed Christians are all over the map - not only varying by denomination, but even more so because of the individuals we all are. Sometimes it is a wonder how we can call ourselves as being of the same faith.

I see similar differences (sic) between people who claim to be Buddhist, Daoists, Hindus, etc. People of the same religion or philosophical bent often demonstrate vastly different mores or behaviors. Some of us take certain things more seriously than others too.

As for Muslims in Wing Chun, there definitely are some, even from China. We most often hear of Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism with respect to China, but the Muslim and Christian faiths also have a substantial presence.

At least one of my own sibaks is from a Chinese Muslim family. You wouldn't guess it unless he told you. Again, denominational and individual beliefs and practices will vary wildly. My sibak would probably also be disinclined to bow in your or anyone's school, but I suspect it would be more a matter of personal judgment than a religious matter, LOL.

Even Wing Chun schools have their own culture. In your school, it seems that the culture expects one to bow. In our lineage, there is distinctly no bowing, no special hand signals, etc.; when visitors do these kinds of things, it is usually met with a smile and a somewhat embarrassed request to refrain. For us, the hands are dictators of respect, LOL. Aside from that, we all meet as friends and equals.

So things are different all over. At the risk of sounding pukingly PC, it helps to consider the nature and diversity of people.

Just to share a few of my own random thoughts. Whether as individuals or representatives of our faiths, we share so much in common, yet we are all so different.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[dezhen2001]

great post

i think everyone is different, and a skill like wing chun can develop to suit everyone who trains it. it has done since its creation.

dawood

[pseudoswitch]

Great posts guys.

We have many Muslim students at our schools. We do not have a strict requirement for bowing or showing respect to one another, it is left to the student's own preference.

Showing respect can be done in many ways! Bowing is just one of them

Regards,

pseudo

[wingchunalex]

I know quite a few people who are moslem and do wing chun, one of which is my sifu. I also know 3 other moslems at our school. they don't have a problem with bowing.

I think there is a differece between bowing to a kung fu brother/sister and to God. In bowing to our kung fu brother/sister we are only showing respect. I think the bowing to God has a different meaning, I think it is more a bow of absolute dependence and servitude. The intention is different with the two.

But regardless of what I think about the subject, Its up to the perspective student that you mentioned and how he choses to practice his faith as other had mentioned.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,
Excellent posts. This is a topic I have never really thought much about. One thing I want to point out is that many if not most wing chun groups do not bow to each other. My sense is this is not a wing chun thing, but a chinese cultural thing. I have never attended a wing chun class that bowed. I think many people confuse martial tradition with Cultureal tradiation, which is understandable as there is obviously overlap.

How is this for an interesting story. I went to a wing chun seminar that was held by a muslem several years ago. The seminar was held in a Christian Church. No issues at all between Muslem, Christian, and pugulism. LOL. They followed their faith, and I was tempted to follow mine, though I am not real religious. But I did feel a bit odd practicing wing chun in a church.

My personal thoughts are religion and wing chun can coexist. Some people have some issues though. I myself find it funny that one that is relegious would think it is OK to develop fighting skills and I would think that would be a point of contention rather than bowing to another. But that is just me.

Tom
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Kitchen Measures

[kj]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I myself find it funny that one that is relegious would think it is OK to develop fighting skills and I would think that would be a point of contention rather than bowing to another. But that is just me.

I don't see it as inconsistent, but instead close adherence to the golden rule "Do unto others lest they do unto you." <j/k>

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

We're a pretty informal group. Bow, shake hands, nod, smile, whatever. We do have some people of the Islamic faith amoung our students (we've had christians, jews, hindus, buddhists, and others as well) and its never even been a consideration (in that I don't know if they bowed or not, we were always too busy saying "hi" and getting with the WCK).

It would be strange for a class to insist on bowing, as its really piece-meal culture. If the entire thing was completely within Chinese custom (done in Cantonese, with some people sipping tea off to the side, playing mahjong or cards, wandering in and out, etc.) I'd understand, otherwise its just pseudo-cultural trappings and it shouldn't get in the way of the WCK.

[Guile]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I myself find it funny that one that is relegious would think it is OK to develop fighting skills and I would think that would be a point of contention rather than bowing to another. But that is just me.

Tom

How is that a point of contention?
Being good doesnt mean being weak.
How can you defend others who need help when you are too weak to help yourself or will get smacked down if you try.

[dezhen2001]

good posts guys

we train in a church hall as well when its too cold for the park. Qigong is not too bad but we sure get some odd looks when doing the taiji push hands or stuicking hands hehe, especially also weapons

i think respect is either given or its not, no matter what you do, but then again its up to the club to "enforce" their etiquette.

im sure if your student wants to train then he will find a way

Guile: agreed. it depends on intention again.

dawood

[Tae Li]

hello all

I dont do wing chun but just want to applaud you all on MAINTAINING the topic. all great posts and opinions here.

Just wanna add that as stated previously, its all about the INTENTION, thats what it comes down to.

Tae Li

[tparkerkfo]

Originally posted by Guile


How is that a point of contention?
Being good doesnt mean being weak.
How can you defend others who need help when you are too weak to help yourself or will get smacked down if you try.

I admit it might just be my feable mind making irrational connections where they may not belong. My personal thought, which I don't mean to force on any one else, is that fighting is not a good thing, atleast in a religous(Christian) sense. People, ofocurse, have justified it over the years though. I would think some one who has a belief in God would have an issue with training to hurt another individual if they really adhear to what ever doctrines they hold dear. If one can not bow to another, then I would think Violence would also be an issue. Keep in mind this is my POV and I don't mean to suggest how others interprete their religous nature, especially in a different religion than what I am familiar with. And I am not very religous to boot. Just given you my perspective into my thought process.

But I think you made a valid point, as did KJ.

Sorry for any feather ruffling.
Tom
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VAPOR LOUNGE

[dezhen2001]

tparkerkfo: then how come the shaolin monks could defend the temple and china from invading japanese pirates?

I think non violence and being peaceful is the aim in most religions - but also the ability to adapt and sometimes you have no choice in things... kinda like what wing chun teaches to

dawood

[foolinthedeck]

wow.
thanks everyone for your posts. i'd like to hope that the guy i met could have read this thread, its gone really nice.

regarding the bowing especially, i previously posted on this.. when i used to train with Sifu Tse we never bowed, everyone knew where they stood..

having said that, i left the 'fold' after called sifu tse by his first name 'michael' at a new years dinner to ask him a question and was subsequently asked to apologise for not calling him sifu or sigong. for years afterwards i was ****ed off that 'respect' was such an issue. i have now learned from time away that i should have shown more respect. (dont know what david thinks of this?)

but i'm getting slightly off topic.
respect is in the hands,, KJ said that i think, and i respect you KJ from your posts, even though we've never played.

the bowing at the class i go to now was weird at first, now its normal. i quite like it, but wouldnt feel superior to bow to someone who doesnt normally bow.

i'd rather not even know what religion someone else is, becuase its not an issue, when people introduce themselves as 'insert stereotypical arabic name here'.. its easy to be judgemental, but then not all arabs are muslims either.

anyway. nice post.
much respect