GrandMaster of ALL Shao-Lin

[MasterKiller]

This was also the name of the organization in Indonesia headed by their maternal grandfather, Ie Chang Ming, when Hiang and Sin were students there.

I was looking at Mullins' SD site, and people there seem to be adamant about Sin not being related to Ie Chang Ming. Is this is the cause of their split, maybe?

Mullins responses to his students questions about SD lineage on that board showed class all the way.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

I was looking at Mullins' SD site, and people there seem to be adamant about Sin not being related to Ie Chang Ming. Is this is the cause of their split, maybe?

Mullins responses to his students questions about SD lineage on that board showed class all the way.

You're right MK, Mullins' responses were indeed classic, and he actually posts in this forum, too (by the way, he's not the same one as the sifu. over there in Appalachia, they're just all related! j/k .

And as he said, whatever was the cause of the split is really none of our business. What matters is that we train hard and reap the benefits of our martial arts experience, and everything else takes care of itself.

[dezhen2001]

he actually posts in this forum, too

wonder what he thinks of all this then - and why he didnt clearly answer everything?

dawood

[Ironmantis]

OK .... I have read the numerous threads on this and I am about to the point where I am ready to puke.

We are supposed to be martial artists.

I have seen more posts in this thread insulting and bashing people than I have educating people.

This is wrong. If the Old Masters of our respective arts say this they would say shame on us.

Let this thread die. People are entitled to their respective opinions. Let them be .....

SD is SD, Hungar is Hungar, JKD is JKD, etc .....

I have sparred people from SD, my own art of CSC, TKD, Kickboxing, Mantis, White Lotus, Karate and you know what .....???
True MA are true MA no matter what they study. People find a style that suits them. Also, the truley dedicated ones become the real MA, never giving a moments notice to other small trivial things like this thread or insulting another art.

People - let us better ourselves in our own respective arts and stop all this nonsense.......

Iron Mantis
CSC

[The Willow Sword]

Uhh i think you need to sober up again. i have been PRACTICING Martial arts for 17 years. i am 32 years old.

I stand by my statement in my profile that you quoted.

Shaolin arab: when i said "Karate mantis" i meant that this is what SD Mantid forms look like and feel like.
i learned the traditional and proper Bung bo chuan before sd and when i saw theirs i had an incling then(when i was a green belt) that the forms were creations based on the classical forms.
but knowing what i know of mantis i made the call that it only looks mantis like. it doesnt feel mantis at all. (hey just an opinion)

MonkeyKing: Thanks for the back up. yeah i can be buttholish sometimes. heheh.


Oh and shaolin arab. I know who teaches you in New orleans and he is a good man and honorable. (he and i have trained together) i left sd a second degree black belt so there isnt a form there that i DONT know about. i am not bashing SD because of what they teach(my opinions about the mantis section of sd are my opinions).
TWS

[themeecer]

Thank you for your input, dragon797. I actually learned something new. I thought Grandmaster Ie was a monk at the temple, and he followed GM Su out of the temple, with a few other masters. Was Master Liu Su Peng a monk from the temple? If not, where did he learn the bird system? Is this the one teacher that is still alive?

You seem very knowledgable about both brothers, you must have some very good ties to them. But I will allow your actual affiliation to remain hidden, and not ask you. Our school is currently under Grandmaster Sin's wing, but my teacher has always had the best things to say about GM Hiang. I believe that my teacher is who he is today because GM Hiang pushed him so hard. It is shadowed in the way he teaches and I am thankful that both brothers pushed that hard. In that way, it is almost like I am learning from them.

Originaly posted by the Willow Sword
I learned the traditional and proper Bung bo chuan before sd and when i saw theirs i had an incling then(when i was a green belt) that the forms were creations based on the classical forms.

Are you speaking of Lo Han Chien? That is actually not part of the mantis system. A lot of people mistakenly call it that. It is Fist of the Lo Han (roughly meaning hero). Still a nice form when done correctly.

[The Willow Sword]

lo han chien at green belt in Sd was always called the gateway form to praying mantis. No i am speaking of Bung bo mantis form that was taught at a seminar in lexington years ago when i was a green belt.

[cho]

Originally posted by Ironmantis
We are supposed to be martial artists.

As much as I am sick of this thread, though it is amusing, I'm sick of hearing this.

Martial artists aren't this special class of people who follow strict bushido or confucian principles. You think practicing martial arts will turn you into Wong Fei Hung or Miyamoto Musashi?

soldiers in the army are considered martial artists, just as they were considered back in China, learning Pek Kwar or what have you. Schools that talk of honor and the like are only trying to keep some mysticism around the arts.

"old masters" in their day would be the same as the ones today. believe it. There have been petty rivalries between schools, contests, and immaturity. Believe it.

[Radhnoti]

Meecer,

Are you saying that Lo han is not actually a related to mantis? From the footwork and moves I've questioned that classification myself...seems birdlike(specifically crane-like) to me. What family had you heard it originated within and what are some related forms? Sidenote: I've even heard that Lo Han was a form that was integrated in from a JAPANESE source. When I pressed this question I got something about it being brought to the temple from a Japanese "envoy" or some such? I'd never heard this from any but this one source though...any insights? I've also heard something about the "hero" having something to do with a "god of death"? Thanks for any light anyone can shed on this, I'm helping a group with this very form right now and I like to give a historical overview during the breaks.

By the way, meecer, grounddragon, dragon797, arab, TWS, or any of you SD relatives passing near southeastern KY Sept. 5th (Friday) would be welcome at my sifu's "kwoon warming party". We plan on wearing our uniforms, but other than that it'll be a pretty informal thing. Maybe someone will feel like demo-ing a form or two...some sparring, etc. My instructor is infamous for his "take it easy, everything will work out" attitude (exact opposite of me), so it might be worth checking out just to see if it turns out catastrophic!
So, please, everyone consider yourselves invited (which my instructor told me to do a month ago). Anyone interested just drop me an IM or e-mail and I'll send you directions.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
Meecer,

I've also heard something about the "hero" having something to do with a "god of death"? Thanks for any light anyone can shed on this, I'm helping a group with this very form right now and I like to give a historical overview during the breaks.

I have also heard the translation in johnson city as "death fist of the angry god.' most places just call it fist of luo han, but chuan is fist, and either luo or han (i forgot which one) means god or some type of immortal-like guardian figure. some choose not to use that translation so as not to scare the guests!

but if anyone knows anything more, please, do tell. let's get back to discussing and sharing ideas instead of all the bickering.

here's a question that i have for everyone. what do you feel is the best way to drill forms applications? do you break the forms down into segments, and then practice applications on each other? or do you try to apply the applications in free sparring? it's probably best to do both, but what do ya'll think is the most efficient way to focus time on the applications? I try to go into free sparring with a few specific techniques in mind that I will try to find openings to apply them in, and i feel i get more out of the sparring doing so.

[MasterKiller]

Lohan is another word for Arhat, which is a Bohdivisattva, a Buddhist who has attained Nirvana.

Unless separating the words means something else alltogether in Chinese, I think this is what you guys are referring to.

[Radhnoti]

MK,

I would've put it down as one word, but I was trying to follow the pre-established format.

Didn't different immortals attain immortality in different ways? Maybe one got there through battle, gaining the title "lohan"? General Kwan comes to mind as a "fer instance", but this is just late night speculation on my part. And I may be mixing my buddhist and taoist traditions...which if you think about it is pretty appropriate for a guy studying SD.
Someone who knows what they're talking about feel free to jump in here...

[cho]

I don't think Kwan is an immortal as in god, but more like vengeful spirit.

[crazymaddrunk]

The nunchaku in SD is always brought up when dissing the style. Tonight, I read a very interesting piece in "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu" by Wong Kiew Kit.

It reads:

"At that time carrying a weapon in public was not illegal. But while carrying a 'sweeper' was allowed by law, it was nevertheless very inconvenient because it was a long weapon. Hence, some people shortened the shaft so that the two pieces could be placed together and tucked under clothing. This shortened weapon is called a 'small sweeper'. You will probably recognize the small sweeper as the NUNCHAKU, which is actually the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words meaning 'two-sectional staff'."

There's also a cool write-up on the Praying Mantis history in this book. It basically states that the Mantis style was brought to Shaolin, and the abbot of the temple loved the system. It also goes on to say that the abbot was concerned of losing the then main style of Shaolin, Lohan Kung Fu, and that Lohan Kung Fu was added so it could become the "base" of Praying Mantis...so basically I can see the theory behind Lohan Fist being taught in the PM system...

[crazymaddrunk]

The nunchaku in SD is always brought up when dissing the style. Tonight, I read a very interesting piece in "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu" by Wong Kiew Kit.

It reads:

"At that time carrying a weapon in public was not illegal. But while carrying a 'sweeper' was allowed by law, it was nevertheless very inconvenient because it was a long weapon. Hence, some people shortened the shaft so that the two pieces could be placed together and tucked under clothing. This shortened weapon is called a 'small sweeper'. You will probably recognize the small sweeper as the NUNCHAKU, which is actually the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words meaning 'two-sectional staff'."

There's also a cool write-up on the Praying Mantis history in this book. It basically states that the Mantis style was brought to Shaolin, and the abbot of the temple loved the system. It also goes on to say that the abbot was concerned of losing the then main style of Shaolin, Lohan Kung Fu, and that Lohan Kung Fu was added so it could become the "base" of Praying Mantis...so basically I can see the theory behind Lohan Fist being taught in the PM system...