Internal Arts

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Humble apologies.. i misinterpreted your post.. it seemed to say that when it's "on", the training is "off" and it's just brawling.. if you intended otherwise, i apologize..

If we don't train to fight, we're in the wrong forum.. This is Internal "Martial" Arts.. You can be assured contact is an elemental part of my school's curriculum..

Be well..

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm really no different from you, TaiChiBob.

Our training methods are probably similar, if not identical.

[Knifefighter]

================================================== =...(tendon strength allows the muscles to relax so we don't fight ourselves)
================================================== =
Muscle tissue force production brings about all body movements. Tendons attach muscle to bone. Tendons don’t have anything to do with muscular tension, or lack thereof. Muscle relaxation is determined by the neurons that enervate the muscle.


================================================== =
Honest in my current kwoon everybodies T-Shirt ends up the same colour at the end of the lesson, I never sweated as much as in TJQ.
================================================== =
Sweating does not necessarily mean you are improving your fitness. Cardiovascular fitness is increased by stressing the cardiovascular system (breathing harder). Strength is increased by working the muscles at a high enough load that they fatigue in less than about two minutes. Muscular endurance requires working the muscles for an extended amount of time until they are fatigued.

================================================== =
Too much muscle inhibits flexibility and speed.
================================================== =
In 90% of cases increasing muscle mass increases speed in that specific muscle. With the exception of extreme hypertrophy, muscle mass does not inhibit flexibility.

.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

To be clear.. i should have said longer tendons with greater cross-sectional area permit the muscle to transfer energy more efficiently to the bone during the leverage motion.. But, in short, tendon training enhances efficient muscle use.. you are correct, the muscle doesn't "relax", it simply doesn't need to work as hard to accomplish the same task when the tendons are properly trained..

Muscle mass can be a factor when the muscle is so heavily developed that it interferes with the ability to take the adjacent joints through their complete range of motion (for example, large hamstrings limit the ability to fully bend the knees). Excess fatty tissue imposes a similar restriction.

http://galway.informatik.uni-kl.de/s...g_3.html#SEC21

From personal experience and interaction with others my "insight" into this issue is that there is a balance that frequently is discarded in favor of "aesthetics".. a strong muscular body frequently compromises a certain range of motion..

One man's myth is another man's truth.. we will each rationalize our own beliefs..

Be Well..

[Muppet]

Sorry, I just don't see it.

The grappling/striking was just an example to highlight how different things can be with different training.

If it's all a wash, then why even bother with tai chi?
Why not just learn Hsing I?

Granted, the difference between Hsing I and Tai Chi isn't at the same scope as BJJ and Boxing but just because bottom line is to win, doesn't mean it all becomes a wash.

Certain styles suit better than others for whatever reason.

[StickyHands]

Hmm then tell me why do u train what you train instead of training something else, i.e. if you train xingyi, why dont u train Tai Chi? You made a good point, but a subtle explanation.

[HuangKaiVun]

Here's how it goes, Muppet:

The instant somebody throws a punch at your head and your arm goes up to block it, you'll realize that a raised arm is a raised arm no matter what the system calls it (Single Palm Change or Pi Chuan or Play Guitar . . . )

[Muppet]

You have a point but...

A straight punch is a punch whether you call it "beng chuan", a parry and right cross/jab, or "deflect, parry & punch.

Yes, the basic tools are shared but that's not surprising considering there's only so many ways you can perform a good punch (or kick, etc.).

When I miss, how do I follow up?
When I connect, how do I follow up?
When the guy is swinging, what does my training incline me to do?

Heck, if we restrict Hsing I's techniques strictly to the scope of boxing's rules (e.g., just fists, etc.), it still has a different approach than western boxing.

Now with everything that's out there, I've been lead to believe Tai chi's wider footwork emphasizes a wider stance for stability whereas Hsing I (and bagua) emphasizes a narrower stance for mobility. To hazard a guess, tai chi almost needs stuff like push hands and "stickiness" training to make up for its relative lack of mobility.

Different tools, different footwork, etc. It all seems to make for approaches which are different.

[Muppet]

StickyHands, I train what I train mainly because I'm following this advice: Hsing I, bagua, or taiji, if you're lucky enough to find a genuine teacher willing to teach the goods, put whatever pre-conceived preferences you may have and take it.

This is a lot harder than I first thought. Where I live, I went to several different teachers with great reputations (applicable for fighting, etc.), but looking back now, none of them were really teaching what was advertised.

Now if I had a choice of any three with all other things being equal, I'd probably take Hsing I anyway. Of all three arts, Hsing I has the least-steep learning curve because it keeps things relatively simple, and since MA isn't my entire life, this little detail is important and attractive.

[StickyHands]

Looks like we fall in the same category But please let me be blunt one more time and ask, then why Xingyi and not Karate?

[Muppet]

Well, many reasons, really, though I've picked up on an external style.

Basically, for the time and effort put into many of these external styles, I figured I was better off taking PROVEN stuff like muay thai or western striking methods. I shopped around and even dabbled in some (wing chun, TKD, etc.) but none of them really felt "right". Some seemed like a joke, others just didn't fit my profile.

On the other hand, styles like muay thai is a bit much for me at this point in my life and just as important, I'm not much of a kicker so boxing is my choice.



Another reason is that way back when, I picked up a copy of Jane Hallander's compilation of different kung fu styles.

For some reason, the Hsing I, bagua, and taiji sections got me curious as to what all this internal stuff was about. Then, the more I looked into it and read up on it, the more I wanted to find a real teacher and see this internal stuff for myself, and here I am, having found the real deal and slowly getting started.

[ShaolinWood]

Taiji training can be very effective in 5 years of study( If you learn from the right master) The remaining time of study is perfecting.

The kind of perfecting that you will never get in Kickboxing or a "street-wise" style.
I totally agree that the "cage" is a barberic display of greedy testosterone. It's about money and ego, Exactly the opposite of good character. Taiji and gongfu teaches good character.

This should be clear and anyone who practice taiji or good gongfu knows that patience is a virtue.

The real difference is a 60 year old Taiji practitioner will still kick royal butt where no one else will.

[jun_erh]

Fitness should not be measured by muscle mass.. it is an all-round development of mind, body and spirit..

So shouldn't muscle development be part of that?




Also, My teacher's teacher (he refers to him as sipa) was also in his seventies when he taught him kuo shu and san shou. My teacher said he had the hardest punch he's ever felt. Plus, other things besides muscle and power go with age, like reflexes, speed, etc. It depends on your personality I think.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Absolutely.. Muscle development should be a part of fitness development.. but, sheer muscle mass is not indicative of a full understanding of the art.. Most of the really good fighters i know are finely cut, well toned, and of medium muscle mass.. their (and my own) understanding is strength fails at the expense of flexibility.. By my own experience, development is a blend of skill, strength, stamina, character and health... Body, mind and spirit, no single aspect more or less important than another..