Internal Arts

[StickyHands]

What's main difference between Taiji, Hsing-yi, and Ba Gua? Thank you.

[Nexus]

Even a perfect answer in words would not give you the true feeling of the difference. If you are fortunate, find a teacher who teaches at least 2 of the mentioned arts and ask them to show you them both.

Most teachers will gladly oblige so that you can understand the differences.

They are significantly difference but all rely on posture and structural positionining/integrity/internal power generation (from the dantien/waist.)

Good luck in your learning.

[StickyHands]

I understand that, but I was still looking for a general answer I guess. Im sure someone here is aware of the difference at least. Thank you.

[dwid]

rock, paper, and scissors

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Fundamentally, there is no difference.. It is merely different paths up the same mountain.. Like Nexus said, words fail in this matter.. at best, the explanation would be way too lengthy for this venue.. Visit classes, read books, rent videos.. Enjoy the journey..

Be well..

[Vapour]

Say you and your opponent is fighting up in the cliff.

If you are a xingyquan fighter, you just keep moving forward until your opponent get oblibirated off the cliff.

If you are a baguaguan fighter, everytime your opponent attack, you evade and attack from blind corner until your opponent is off the clif.

If you are a taijiqquan figher, everytime your opponent attack you neutralised it and when he retreat, you seize that momvent to push him flying off the clif.

That's my best description.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I think that Vapour is outlining the key differences, it comes down to tactics. Strategically they are very similar, but after battle is engaged they are rather different.

One way to approach it is to consider how they treat the ground of battle. Taijiquan shows its roots as a village style in that it is like a walled town. Stand your ground and invite the opponent to waste their strength on your walls, punctuated by the occasional sally out to lift the siege.

Xingiquan is like heavy infantry, thundering along and taking the battleground from one end to the other. Willing to absorb losses without stopping.

Baguazhang is like light cavalry. Profoundly maneuverable with articulate scouts. Willing to give up the ground to allow for flanking maneuvers and able to go formless before suddenly wheeling and striking.

[YiLiJingLei]

Cool Summary, Kevin,
I liked it. So how've you been doing, bud? Email me when you get a chance. Anything new in your neck of the woods?

[StickyHands]

Compared to the external arts, how long does it take for someone to become a proficient fighter in the internal arts? Can they contend with an external martial practitioner with same years of training generally speaking? I dont mean to be a fight monger, but just wondering. Thank you.

[taijiquan_student]

It depends how you are taught. Some people are fighting a lot within the first year, and then others don't start sanshou (not the sport) for a couple years. But in general I would say (and this is a paraphrase of something my teacher told us William Chen said) that if after three years of practice you don't have something that you can use effectively in a fight, then you're doing something wrong (not that you should be a master, but that you should have a solid amount of stuff that works for you that you can build on).

[StickyHands]

I thought Xingyi is learned relatively in very short amount of time compared to the other 2 internal arts. And is very powerful and dominating compared to the other 2 as what the guys said in the previous posts.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Compared to the external arts, how long does it take for someone to become a proficient fighter in the internal arts? Can they contend with an external martial practitioner with same years of training generally speaking? I dont mean to be a fight monger, but just wondering. Thank you.

There is no mistery.
A Internal guy training for fighting correctly takes the same time as External guy training for fighting.
On the other hand, if this Internal guy's training is aimed at developing the "holy premature mother chi blast from the 666th galaxy cosmos" or something then the External guy will beat him easy. In this case not in 1, 3 or 20 years will the Internal guy ever be any good in fighting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"holy premature mother chi blast from the 666th galaxy cosmos" or something then the External guy will beat him easy. In this case not in 1, 3 or 20 years will the Internal guy ever be any good in fighting.

...

Once again, someone assigns their own misguided concepts to a relatively simple concept.. muscle strength vs. energy refinement and tendon strength (tendon strength allows the muscles to relax so we don't fight ourselves).. Sure, there's a bunch of people out there that wish there was some mystical holy grail.. there is, but, it's already yours... The simple reason it takes longer to truly utilize "internal arts" is the amount of detail that requires attention, the amount of "unlearning" external indoctrinations, the amount of lifestyle changes we should go through to fully realize proper form and function of the body, mind spirit connection. I've played both sides, evolving from external to internal and it was 5 years before i felt the truly martial potential of Tai Chi, 10 years before it really started to manifest itself in my sparring.. now, almost 15 years later, i have substituted internal arts for external with rewarding success..

Too many people assume that "Chi" is some mystical energy.. it is not, it is simple life energy.. it's the stuff that's missing when you mix-up the precise amount of chemicals to build a human body.. it is what animates us.. internalists simply pay attention to the subtleties (QiGong, TCM, etc.. ) and train the energy as well as the machine..like any engine, the quality of fuel greatly affects the engine's performance.. Most often, i see those that dismiss "Chi" are the ones that just don't have the patience or will to invest the time in the diverse aspects of internal arts.. and that's okay, i don't belittle their choice, it's not an easy regimen..

To assert that the internal guy ("chi blast", that's just silly and prejudicial) will never be any good at fighting is simply not so.. yeah, i know, why don't we see them "in the Cage"?.. because the time involved in internal training seems to impart some maturity as well.. By the way, "Chi blast" can be an appropriate description when refined energy surges through well-trained tendons and muscles supported by a correctly aligned body.. the effect is substantially different than a similar looking external technique..

Anyway, that's "my" understanding.. Be well..

[scotty1]

"yeah, i know, why don't we see them "in the Cage"?.. because the time involved in internal training seems to impart some maturity as well.. "

That's ridiculous. Forgive me for putting words in your mouth but are you saying that by the time people have learnt to fight with an internal art that they've grown out of wanting to compete?
That competing is not for mature people?

I would also like to defend what Xebsall said. I don't think he was belittling people who train in the more 'internal' aspects of the internal arts, merely pointing out that if your training only involves this and no sparring or fight training then you're never going to be a good fighter. This makes perfect sense to me...

[Fred Sanford]

i seems to me that xebby was just saying that if you don't train to fight you won't be a good fighter.

15 years to be able to fight with tai chi? what a huge waste of time. IMO.

Go Xebby Go!!!