Gene I'm offended

[diego]

im speaking on jimmy swaggert?? i remember as a youth sneaking into a penthouse mag and he was busted with a prostitute and hes still on tv promotin his thang.....

im not like that i study all philosophy and hold that heck if it makes you a beeter person more power to you/........because nothing can be proven!!!!

[Stumblefist]

Gene, you parrot communist govenment propaganda quite well, yet i think you really don't know nor care whether the CCP is a jellyfish or "the curse of the mummy." You just think that somehow you are defending CHINA an The CHINESE PEOPLE and YOURSELF. None of these things are the CCP, and you cannot be a mainland chinese person, no matter what you do, you already "know too much", no one can go back to naivity although you do try hard. You should accept that you are not chinese but a human being like the rest of us."
"CCP TV says " Our party, our people, our china, our chinese". they try to put all these things as one so that people can't separate them and think critically." So any critical thought just results in a nationalistic response"
....................
"As for your last paragraph, I'm not sure what your getting at exactly.... "jellyfish or a curse of the mummy" "not chinese but human being like the rest of us" Just what are you trying to say?

Gene Ching
...............................
I can see you need it spelled out in triplicate. This level is just too difficult or actually non-existent for you. When people have a cultural attachment, then can't think beyond the hard-wired picture of haveing their ego identified wiht something else. I tried to pin GLW down on his attitudes exactly similar to yours and i just got incoherent responses and he drifted off. So it's obvious that self-awareness is not there, just the ego-defense.
You spout CCP propaganda but you genuinely don't know or care what the CCP is. You only think you are defending "Chinese People" against attack and against "Americans". You have said as much pereviously. You think that you are "CHINESE", you are not, you are a human being just like everyone else. You think that if China The Country can be glorifies, then YOU are glorified. Why don't you get your own glory in yourself instead of looking for it in an illusion at the expense of others.
Now if Chana wins gold medals with Wushu, i'm not going to think Chinese people everywhere are glorious. I asm not racist. What i am going to think is that the chinese government is doing it's usual lying and cheating stuff promoting a rigged game with lots of propaganda as a smokescreen to hide the double-dealing.
Now i suppose if the Swedes should conquer Russia again, i should swell up with a sense of pride. That would be as senseless as your motivation and attachment.
And what is this logic that says if there is something in society that is negative, then you have to feel unhappy and leave the country? That is like a kid's attitude. It's terrible that you have grown to adulthood and cannot put away your childhood stories. So you have to invent an artifical illusion of the world around you and propagate it on others to protect your own weak ego. Then you have to ignore the real lives of real people because you can't accept reality.
The world's a nasty place, grow up, deal with it and be happy.

"Without water there would be no fish"

[Crimson Phoenix]

CMA are chinese and should stay that way...period...CMA were borrn in China, grew in China, thrived in China, they are the embodiment of the chinese mind in a way...I'm not chinese, but you cannot steal the roots of a tree without killing it...Ed Parker created American kenpo karate, I do not want to ever see someone come up with american (or french, or whatever) gong fu...gong fu is and will stay chinese, case closed...growing as a unique race, the human race, and building a necessary global village doesn't mean we have to rip or burry or denaturate our own particular cultures or steal other's...now, when I read ads about "become a kung fu balck belt in one week" or "this is the ultimate style and you can master it for 1000 bucks", sometimes I wonder if capitalistic societies don't kill real TCMA as fast as the PRC is said to (and the guy up there knows I can't stand PRC's show wushu)...
Anyway...as everytime humans are dealt with, there will always be one version per person, and no one will be able to clearly demonstrate who's right...

[danny from miami]

........because nothing can be proven!!!!

actually alotta things from the bible have been proven and things that it says will happen are already happening

[NorthernMantis]

Diego--

My apologies for jumping the gun.

CRimson Phoenix <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I do not want to ever see someone come up with american (or french, or whatever) gong fu...gong fu is and will stay chinese [/quote]

I tottaly agree

Danny from Miami--

I'm on to you....I might make it to class today.Later.

"Always be ready"

[diego]

like even the bigbang you cant really prove to me or him or you that it occured....you can mathematikaly equate things but how can you really prove??....your instruments might be jumbled :)

[GeneChing]

Wow, stumble, I've been looking for a good DJ name. That's awesome! Thanks & praises!

Cultural pride is not racism. Diversity is not racism. CMA belongs to the world now, but we cannot cut off it's roots. Stop trying to play the race card, it's a bad card here.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

[Stumblefist]

Conversely Racism is not Cultural Pride.
Racism is racism.

I am not playing the racist card, i am exposing you and the others in playing it and revealing its consequences and the hidden motivations.

"I do not want to ever see someone come up with american (or french, or whatever) gong fu...gong fu is and will stay chinese"

You can see, it is others who are still playing the race card without awareness, without explict declaration, even understanding the consequences to themselves, currently or for the future. CMA means derived not owned". It now belongs to human beings and not races or countries. Kungfu is no longer specifically CHINESE "cultutral pride", it belongs to all human beings pride now , chinese no longer have ownership. The roots are historical, the best art of kungfu is no longer in China.

You want to stop me for saying the word "racism." It is because manipluation of others works under ignorance and darkness. In the light of day the worms will die.

All of my arguments still stand unopposed by any logical argumentation.

"Without water there would be no fish"

[Crimson Phoenix]

Stumble, you quote my words alright, but forgot to add the part where I say "I AM NOT CHINESE"...hard to speak about racism, if I were chinese maybe, but I'm a white guy...OK, I have mongolian ancestors 4-5 generations above me, but it doesn't count...I'm a white guy claiming CMA were chinese in the past and should stay that way...why do you think so many masters say it's good to learn about chinese culture when you practice gong fu? It's not because they want to enrrole us in some sect or turn us yellow (don't take offense in these word, please, I don't mean it like that but I can't translate my french exactly)...it's just that chinese culture/spirit/mind always managed to infuse and color everything in china...even the mandchourian or mongolian invaders establishing dynasties in China ended up following han customs, dressing like chinese, and even sometimes taking chinese names...it was the same with gong fu, it's chinese roots are so deep and important that the day you try to take the chinese part out of gong fu it's like taking the fragrance and roots of a flower: eventually it withers, fades and dies...
CMA is derived from chinese thought, if you want...but if you respect it, you'll bind your spirit to a knowledge of this culture, you'll be killing CMA if you try to make it anything other than chinese...CMA as I said are an embodiment of chinese mind over the milleniums, if you respect them, you have to taake them with the chinese part that is their roots...you respect more a rose if you let it live in it's soil than if you cut it to put it in a vase.
What the hell bothers you with chinese cultural pride and gong fu?? If you're not happy with it, why don't you try boxing or karate (well, if japanese cultural pride doesn't bothers you, that is)...let's steal St Patrick away from the Irish, let's stop celebrating 14th of july in France because we happen to be the only country celebrating it, let's even take away your 4th of july...cultural pride is what makes a culture able to stand in time, because if no one is proud of their culture, then eventually it fades away...Why do we have to turn it into a race issue?? Culture isn't race and reciprocally...If I say CMA are chinese, I'm not being racist against the non chinese (which once again I belong to), I'm just aknowledging the fact that it was developped by chinese mind and that if you take that away, it will become an ersatz, a ple copy with no soul...only flowers, no roots...like "I can't believe it's not gong fu"...is it what you want?
You are talking in your post about "consequences for the future"...well, your ideas are the ones that can lead to emptying gong fu of its essence in the future...
Logic has nothing to do here, logic is a poor factor when you deal with human affairs...if logic worked in society, the economists and politicians would have a much better time making things work.
And once again, this all comes from the mouth of A WHITE GUY (and all the girls say I'm pretty fly, for a white guy :D )

[Stumblefist]

"I'm a white guy claiming CMA were chinese in the past and should stay that way..."
That is racism.Probably the worst kind, sort of an unaware kind.

"CMA is derived from chinese thought,"
to be more precise from chinese historical culture, not chinese race nor current chinese culture. What that is is a MENTAL concept "CHINESE-DERIVED". What it has been derived form no longer exists, only exists in the carrier whoever that is i.e. no longer CHINESE RACE
That is historical. This TIME is NOW. What a world citizen inherits is a cultural-set which they own TO THEMSELVES and not to CHINES RACE or CHINESE-OWNED.
We need a new terminology to eliminate the inheitance of racism in order to think properly about not only kungfu but many cross-cultural derivations. It should be no longer CMA but WCMA World Chines Martial Arts, well that doesn't sound too good, but the problem is the words we use themselves are inherited racism.


"it's chinese roots are so deep and important that the day you try to take the chinese part out of gong fu it's like taking the fragrance and roots of a flower: eventually it withers, fades and dies"
No romansce of any past needs be lost. but the past is only the PAST. Kungfu will not die it will develop a new history everywhere else. The roorts ar NOT chinese RACE, that is racist, the roots are body-art-cultural, that is race-independent, coiuntry-independent. I am fully awar of every inheritance, including NO idiom-to-idiom translations in language. However there is no barrier because culture is miodifiable, things such as new and exact idioms will be invented in other languages.
Further, i am not advocating anything, i don't have to. I can already see the process. It is long but it finally ends to kil the racial domination.

"Why do we have to turn it into a race issue??"
Take a look at your own post. You have turned it into a race issue. I am exposing the hidden assumtions in people's thinking and proposing eliminating the racism.

"What the hell bothers you with chinese cultural pride and gong fu??"
Chinese cultural pride has nothing to do with kungfu. The kungfu in America does not glorify CHINESE, it does not glorify GENE, it does not glorify the commies, it does not glorify the beijing olympic team, it only glorifies the justly deserving practicioners and inheritors of that art.
"If you're not happy with it, why don't you try boxing or karate"
So now you are telling me that i can't practice kung fu because it is not mine and is owned by the Chinese? I'm perfectly happy with kungfu ond with MY kungfu. There is no SOB racist going to come along and tell me that MY kungfu is THEIR cultural pride and belongs to them and glorigfies them. It is now MINE, belongs to ME, I am a full inheritor of more than 2 systems, they are now MINE.
Let me ask you because you haven't fully understood what it means to call CMA as chinese owned. In that case you have no right to practice it, no right to inherit it, no right to develop it.
Come to China and you will find out that is exactly what is the Chinese attitude and Chines Idea. Many of you have already found that out in your Wuguans when you found out after 10 years that your master has given you the scraps and fed his chinese students the meat and bones. You are the clown, the foil so that Genes and Chinese racists can feel good giving themselves medals. So long as you have the slightest weakness in this area guys like gene will take full advantage of you confusion. And it is a consufusion between cultural pride and ethnic prejudice. Cultural pride is harmless
Kungfu does not belong to Chinese people, to the communist party, to Gene, to the current mainland population (god forbid! they only know what's in the movies) nor even to the best masters (few that they are) thhat do remain in China. It belongs to whoever practices it.

This issue also exist in Japanese Martial arts where the racism is much more obvious and the consequences more obvious such as there can be noone of the higher ranks in some large Karate and Aikido Societies. If you study that situation you can see the same solution has been developed, all the knowledge has been transferred to the WEST and independentcenters have been established. They are paying less and less attention to the racists in Tokyo and when they are finally independent they will still pay the past homage but they will cut them out of the reality. It is a natural process.
The commies created a Deformed Wushu Art. A consequence of giving them ownership is to spread that garbage sport all over the world as definitive kungfu.

"Without water there would be no fish"

[Stumblefist]

"Cultural pride is not racism. Diversity is not racism. CMA belongs to the world now, but we cannot cut off it's roots."
"Stop trying to play the race card, it's a bad card here."
What happend to Voltaire and the right to speak etc.etc.?. I think i have just exposed the beast of racism under the smiling mask.

"Without water there would be no fish"

[Crimson Phoenix]

"Come to China"...hahahahha who tells you I haven't?? What do you know about my own knowledge of chinese and their culture? NOTHING so don't even try to attack me on these spots.
And if you think I'm racist, fine, if you think you and your divine sight are the only one to see the latent racism in me, fine, but once again you don't know **** about me (uhhh, I might sound like I'm offended, for the sake of having a good mature discussion, I beg you to trust that I'm perfectly calm and not in a defensive mood)...attacks need real targets, as far as I'm concerned, the target you chose in me are unknown to you...Sun zi would have slapped your backbone for that hehehehehehe.
CMA ARE derived from chinese MIND. it's in the name of that stupid world citizen thing that malay tribes of Sarawak are forced to speak malay instead of their native language....which makes their language AND their culture DIE...as I stated in my earlier post being a citizen of the world DOESN'T mean foreign cultures have to be processed and corrupted to fit your own cultural mindset but it's the OTHER way around: YOU have to EMPTY YOUR CUP and come to the foreign culture while bowing your head in humility like you would a king, it's the only way to save the individuality of cultures in this globalization instead of uniformizing them...foreign cultures are a taste to be acquired, it's not something you should accomodate to fit your self-centered tastes.
You soundd to me like you're the paradigm of guys bringing the world to a cultural uniformisation...scary...

Racism, racism, it's the only word coming out of your mouth...you got some racism issue when you were young or what? You seem to me like Don Qijotte who was so obsessed with giants that he saw them in every windmill...
I never in my post mentionned Chinese RACE but Chinese MIND...if you don't acknowledge that chinese have a mind of their own and ways of thinking or sensibilities radically different from that of "westerner" (it's not a good term, each "westerner" has its own mindsets too), then it means you are blinding your own eyes, and there is no greater blind than the one who refuses to see. So once again for me it's not a RACE issue, but a MIND issue...sorry, but it's a fact: I wasn't raised with chinese mindsets, and chinese weren't raised with a french's mindset...it's not about race if we say that we think differently...it's a fact that only fools deny...but I bowed my head, approached it, and started to learn...
so, how does it feel to be the inheritor of 2 systems?? You sound pretty proud of that..they are YOURS as you capitalized it yourself...was it bugging you that they belonged to chinese before? Are chinese less worthy than you to possess these systems?
Your views are soooooooooooo manichean...when I read your post, it sounds like "chinese are evil, they try to keep gong fu closed to us, you are the clown that the chinese need to feel good giving themselves medals"...and you say there's racism in my post?? And why the hell adding Gene to this?? Doesn't he seem like an open minded guy to you? Does he sound evil? Or are open-minded guys only open-minded to you because they share your views?? Why putting all the chinese in the same basket in your posts, like they are all the same and without individuality, like they all think the same things...isn't that close to racism??
So all chinese necessarily agree with PRC?? COME ON...

pfff...so that's the point huh...you're ****ed because non-chinese guys were treated as lesser students than chinese by some sifus...so-called school secrets were only passed to chinese, non-chinese having only the outter shell ...like it's a big news that a particular group (social, cultural whatever) tries to hang on to the components of their identity and shed it from the rest of the world (ie : the "non-them")...life is tough huh??
I'm out...

[Stumblefist]

CP
Racism: Yes i think you are racist. Separating Humans by Race is Racist.
You can bet this word will come out of my mouth quite often. It needs to be said over and over again. You having been in China doesn't seem to mean much.

"CMA ARE derived from chinese MIND."
No! CMA were developed from a HUMAN mind Chinese RACE had nothing to do with it.
But if you believe the Chinese own CMA why are you here? It's not yours to practice. Why don't you go learn Karate or something?

"YOU have to EMPTY YOUR CUP and come to the foreign culture while bowing your head in humility like you would a king"

Oh i get it S&M, cool. Welll everybody has to get their kicks somehow. Have fun shuffling your feet.

"so, how does it feel to be the inheritor of 2 systems?? You sound pretty proud of that"
It is extremely satisfying and i am grateful for the people that gave it to me. I have something that is MY own forever.

"And why the hell adding Gene to this??"
Gene admits his racial bias.


"like it's a big news that a particular group (social, cultural whatever) tries to hang on to the components of their identity"
Greed, Selfishness, Cruelty, Parsimony of all Kinds, Meanness, Lovelessness... that is not big news. BIG NEWS is when people overcome things like racism and share and give and love

")...life is tough huh??"
My life has been tougher than you could ever imagine and i know what is nourishing to survival and what is destructive and racial bias is destructive.

"I'm out..."
So am I.

"Without water there would be no fish"

[Crimson Phoenix]

OK, one last post because I'm getting tired of this:
First of all, you don't seem to acknowledge that every ethny has a mind shaped by...it's culture, as a matter of fact, so when I mention chinese, I take it as a whole culture, and NOT a race...saying the "chinese race" (and also chinese culture to a certain extent I must admit) is meaningless, as what we call chinese can relate to more or less 57 totally different ethnies...
If you want to keep believing that I mean chinese as a race and not as a culture in spite of my numerous precisions, it is because indeed you do not want to see...like you (purposedly I imagine) forgot some of my attacks to you in your seemingly exact rehearsal of my every words...it seemed you took everyone of my point to argument...but when you look closer, some points you skipped...it's like chinese painting, the unpainted is as meaningful as the painted, your choice of what to attack and what to ignore in my own posts show your game pretty well...
You wanna know? we are two stubborn donkeys and no one will change his mind...my mother and my sifu always told me that the wise man always stops first, so let's say you won...happy now?
I'm happy too, because I know there are persons like you on this planet that don't have one bit of racial bias in them, endlessly fight racism without ever having been guilty of one racial-preference matter and who, in spite of their incredibly tough life, can still be gentlemen and turn metaphors in good ole' sweaty S&M joke because they had to say something and didn't come out with anything better...
You WON YOU WON!!!!
Ya happy??
See ya on some other topic for a good discussion another day, OK?? Yes, I know, I lose with class hahahahahahhaha

[Stumblefist]

"your choice of what to attack and what to ignore in my own posts show your game pretty well..."
Geez now there was no plot in it, there just wasn't time for everthing, you got American-conspiracy disease?

"I'm happy too, because I know there are persons like you on this planet that don't have one bit of racial bias in them, endlessly fight racism without ever having been guilty of one racial-preference matter"
Tanks for the compliment, froggie.

"You WON YOU WON!!!!"
No, you won. I quit first. See my post and time-stamp on Shaolin Abbot is a *****-hole"
Unhappy, now?

"Without water there would be no fish"