Hats Off to ILLUSIONFIST

[billy_pilgrim]

Since you sort of asked a question, I'll grant you an answer, even though you are not as forthcoming...I understand though, you guys have ancient monastic secrets to protect, you can't just be opening up schools on every street corner teaching anyone with a buck...

Some of the differences between what I do and what you do is...
What I do was never called "karate", and doesn't look like it either.
What I do doesn't have Shotokan katas integrated into the curriculum and doesn't contain any Japanese weaponry.
What I do has some similar principles in other systems, I can look at those systems and see a relationship, the antithesis of SD, which can find no commonality between any other CMA...Which brings me to my last point...
All of you SD guys keep making this a personal thing and saying, "just cause it doesn't look like what you do, doesn't mean it ain't Chinese!" That, of course, is exactly right, problem is that I've never said anything like that. My problem is not that it doesn't look or act like what I do, my problem is that it doesn't look or act like any other CMA, it doesn't even look or act like the versions of other CMA's it has "collected" over the years, yes, like Bak Mei, like 7*, etc...
I mean, I still haven't met one person who studies these systems who recognizes the SD versions, not one...
By the way, are you including yourself in the list of "naive souls" whom you are apologizing for? I seem to recall you telling a Bak Mei practicioner on this very forum that he was learning wushu, because he had the audacity to look at the SD "Bak Mei", and call it what it is..

[reemul]

The animal systems are not taught at the SD schools. Each animal system is comprised of a lifetime of material. That is why mastery of multiple animal systems is not recognized by terms laid out under precommunist Shaolin era. Mastery of a system was defined as Life devotion. the endeavor to master more than one system was a
contradiction to the definition of mastery. As well if you had been excepted into an animal system the other masters would not take you on as a student let alone a desciple. If you guys have any of the animal systems(and I'm not willing to concede that you do) your knowledge
is by far incomplete at best.

[Radhnoti]

Replying to billy:
No Shotokan kata. I studied karate for a year, I have a friend who instructs. He thinks the long forms we do are entirely impractical as they aren't linear enough. Went into detail earlier about the whole, "Why was it called karate and what's with the Japanese elements?" You can look it up if you want. What weapons do you imagine (besides, perhaps, the katana) the Japanese had access to that the Chinese did not?
For the most part I've been able to avoid taking anything said "personally", despite several attempts at personal attack.
Couldn't the fact that it doesn't "look like the forms it's collected" indicate that MAYBE "it" didn't collect those forms? No one's EVER told me of a video or book that they were certain GM Sin took material from. If anyone can, I'd appreciate it...I need all the help with the forms I can get.
It surprises you that TWS reacted to an attack on the authenticity of SD? Why? You expected him to accept a judgement of a RealPlayer online video by someone he doesn't know? I'm glad TWS met with illusionfist and the two of them found common ground and at least a bit of mutual respect. It gives me a bit of hope for SD's future as a part of the kung fu community.

-Radhnoti

[reemul]

But Illusion fists commentary of the meeting is vague at best. Sounds to me like he's being PC about the whole thing, however I could be wrong.

[Radhnoti]

Maybe, maybe not. If he were to come forth and give TWS the "thumbs up", saying what he did definitely had CMA style I'm fairly certain he'd come under attack.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[The Willow Sword]

REEmul: The animal systems Are Taught in the Sd school curriculum. the belts from white to green is just an introduction into what is coming your way in the brown belt degrees 1st 2nd 3rd. i will not go into it but suffice it to say that what is being taught is Crane and tiger,,even in the 1st degree BB curriculum you are being taught more tiger,,which is typical od a Southern system of CMA,,however there are other areas with which one can choose to excel in,,whereas i have the crane and tiger forms that system is not me. i turned inward and do the internal stuff that i focused MAINLY on during my time at the SD school in Austin. I am still going to use MY tiger Against your VERY RARe AND MYSTERIOUS Northern Shaolin tiger. We will see who has the tiger concepts down and who does not. keep on Barkin.
BILLY PILGRIM: there is no why there is no how the moment simply is. i give you the tralfamadorian greeting: HELLO FAREWELL,,HELLO FAREWELL, eternally (something i forgot) Eternally embraced,,HEllo FArewell.

Billy, it is a shame that you are wanting answers to questions that you yourself ,in your own mind already answered for yourself.
As for Illusionfist,,i respect his silence in this,,we have already spoken about it and we understand each other on this subject and thread.
so dont try to squeeze blood from a rock you will waste yourtime trying with him. AS for me.
i am still here and still wanting to make good connections with fellow martial artists,,i know that through this forum i have to weed through the trash and crap to get to the honey.
As for the Bak Mei practitioner calling our SD forms what "they Are" i call most of what i have seen WUSHU,,a lot of dancy prancy looking performance artist kung fu,,not to say that WUSHU is inferior in any way,,,hey i respect all martial arts,,even what REEmul does even if it comes under scrutiny as well. sorry if i insulted the WUSHU artists out there but we At SD and myself do COMBAT FORMS.. which are different in style and look to the modern WUSHU that most seem to practice. im sure that you get alot of combat applications and some flexability and speed but with no power behind it,,you are just "dancing" "prancing"... southern styles like hung gar which i have seen illusion fist do have the combat look and feel to it for it is a FIGHTING FORM,,,but he and i do some of the same internal stuff be it different looking due to different teachers/ school. Hey listen billy i really feel that what you do is what you do,,and hey man i respect it,,even though i have no idea what you do,,hey you might even be a disciple of ole BOB KLIEN i would still respect it,,for what it is right? ;) and anyway Billy I AM someone who is not very concerned with the past of someone with whom i feel his life is NO BUISINESS OF MINE,,,,,Ican say that i have net GM SIN i have trained with GM SIn(in seminar) and have had TEA with GM sin and you know the difference between me and you, DipSh!t, is that when i have an opportunity to talk with GM sin i Usually want to ask him How he is doing or how the nice the weather is or just talk about nothing really. Not scrutinize the man.
It is real easy for you and me to talk this diatribe on line and in forum,,,but until you are able to really stand by your convictions and walk up to one of us and let us know how you are really feeling and be a MAN about voicing your opinion instaed of hiding here,,AS REEMUL does then i suggest that YOU STFU! and do something else than try to rattle rpouse a respectfull thread that i have sent to illusionfist.

HEY PEOPLE, Come november,,when i go to Austin, and hopefully other Austin KFM Forum members come to this event that REEMUL will not show up to,,im almost certain of THAT, when this time comes i hope that i can at least make some good contacts and allies and possibly even some friends and at Least help to earn some respect for an organization that I FEEL deserves some respect. Believe me I CAN AND WILL REPRESENT MY SCHOOL WELL. I will show you that what we do is NOT KARATE ANd THE SYSTEMS WE DO ARE WELL TAUGHT AND WELL LEARNED. AND WELL APPLIED :)
Many Respects,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[reemul]

How will you show anyone that what you do is not karate. Many members have seen SD up close and personal and that is how they make the connection.
Not to mention fighting will only serve to prove who is the better fighter not who's system is lagit. There are plenty of good combative karate pracitoners. Lets face it, you're challenging me because you have a bruised ego and your faith has been called into question. You want redemtion in the eyes of your peers because you're unable to find it within yourself. So much for internal training.

Also, if your so certain I won't show, why go through the trouble of bringing the challenge at all. Are you that insecure?

The fact that you get so bent because people question the validity of SD and don't believe in it like you, tells me that you don't seem too sold on it either. If you were I don't think you would be as upset about it. The torment lies in coming to the realization that the years spent training were all for not. The harsh reality of years of deception and tears of denial. Buddha Blesses you my friend.

[The Willow Sword]

it looks to me that you are still trying to, and not doing a good job, wussy out of this. remember your original post " SD Sucks". well its going to be proven that it does NOT suck and that what i do is CMA. it is a shame that you are a coward and a wuss with a martial art that is just as in question and scrutiny as mine. believe me Reemul noone is getting on your bandwagon on this one. YOU in fact initiate the challenge with your comments,,your disrespectful comments,,what is going to be taught to you is how you should NOT make comments like that on a forum where there are certain individuals that CAN and WILL answer your comments personally. it is convienient for me that you are in Austin and my school and teacher are there. This is not about bruised ego any more REEMY Dear this is about principles and standing up for them and meeting the challenge head on regardless of the outcome. "sooner or later, when you jump on the tigers back,,the tiger is going to shake you off,,rip you to shreds have you for lunch,,Sh1T you out and move on".
notice also REEMY Dear that noone here is jumpin to your aid in this one. why? because some of the forum members here know who i am.....who are you ,,mystery northern shaolin tiger?
Many Respects,,Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[BeiKongHui]

Could you challenge a grammer teacher in your quest to convince us all of the awesome power of Shaolin Do. All the **** COMMAS are driving us all crazy! I prefer my comedy readable thank you.

"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

[reemul]

How do you come to the conclusion that I am a coward and wuss?

By the way, when people come to our school, never has anyone made the comparison to karate.

[Radhnoti]

...so far the only person that's seen TWS doing forms on this forum has said, "I can definitely attest to TWS' having a TOTALLY different flavor to that of which is shown on the various SLD vids on the net."
Meaning, one would assume, it didn't look like karate.
I'm already "on record" about what I feel is the foolishness of judging a system's "flavor" via realplayer.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[reemul]

I suppose you could make that assumption or you could make a totally different assumption. The remark is still vague.

[The Willow Sword]

well let me see now umm,,well first of all Reemul has not let us know who he is,,I HAVE let people know and i have always let folks here know who i am for i have nothing to hide.
another thing is that a comment such as "SD sucks" denotes to me a Cowardly comment. And i NAIVE ONE,,oh yes the response will be "well how about you being so nAIVE as to be following something that is not what it claims" and blah blah blah blah,,,,,,,,ive heard it all. so far we have also not heard anything from you about what you study or practice. All that i have been able to find out is that you do some extremely rare form of Northern shaolin tiger(which is questionable) and that you do this "tiger Taichi".
is there some suprise awaiting us all come november reemul??? hmm i wonder. you have also not stated where you would like to meet in Austin since you have apparently accepted my challenge.
you have not stated where you have taken SD before and who the instructor was and so forth. It puts a theory in my mind that YOU ARE BS'ING YOUR TRIP HERE. Whereas many think that what i do is BS,,I havent been BS'ing my trip here.
Also what makes me laugh is that you state that" There are plenty of good combative karate practitioners out there". so essentially what you are saying is that in your mind you are going to be up against a "Karate practitioner" and that this will prove who is the better fighter not whose system is legit. so,,Reemul,,if we spar and its your "kungfu" AGainst my "Karate" and i knock you on your ass silly. What it is going to then prove is that my "karate" is better than your "kungfu" and it will show others that will witness the event that your "Rare kungfu(cma)" is a bunch of BS and that my "karate" is not a bunch of BS. this is a pleasant fiction for me because what it is generating in my mind is that it is going to be YOUR TIGER AGAINST MY TIGER,,and YOUR KUNG FU AGAINST MY KUNGFU(CMA). dont worry i will not be in a GI, to give you any false assumptions about my forms being "karate""shotokan" whatever you call it. i will be in my kf pants and my SD t-shirt. I cant wait for this,,i relish the idea of going to austin to meet you and do Forms, and spar. Believe me when i say that i respect you as a antagonist and look forward to crossing hands with you. but yes i have made the judgement that you will not show up to this,,and we will all be standing there laughing are asses off at you,,whom ever you are, and then it will be a exhibition of our different styles and hopefully a drink and apps at chuy's..... ;)
Many respects,,Willow sword
oh and BKH:"YO MAMA"
Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$. :p

[reemul]

What do you want to know about our system.
It's nice to know you will come dressed for the event, will you also be endorsing Pepsi. hahaha

Actually holding true to my word, I have not yet accepted your "internet challenge". As I have said, challenges are made in person. However I have maintained that if you bring the challenge I will accept it. Nov. is a ways off I don't feel the need concern myself with where it will be right now. I have more pressing matters to deal with than you.

[Radhnoti]

LOL
"I have not yet accepted your "internet challenge""?!?
I naively thought this would actually happen, I see now that reemul will find a way to make sure it doesn't. MUCH respect to TWS for courageously defending his style and system. I have no doubt that he was being honest about his intentions the whole time. Just goes to show that sometimes it's best to just say, "screw it" and step forward for what you believe in.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU