Iron wire.......Sum Chien

[wonderpalm]

Ive just been reading the thread about Hung Gar's Iron Wire Set and found it all very interesting. I study a form from southeren shaolin called Sum Chien (Hokkien), and was wondering if anyone who studies the Iron Wire set, also studies this set as they sound quite similar in principle. If anyone does ould they please highlight any real similarities between the two if any.

Thankyou in advance.

[wonderpalm]

hmmmmm maybe i should add to this......! Sum Chien does not seem to require you to tense the muscles of the body, rather the allignment of the body/limbs tenses the muscles for you. Does this statement tho rather brief and simple relate to how the Iron wire set is performed?

[tparkerkfo]

Hello,

I don't know the iron wire, though I see it all the time at my school. It will be a couple years before I get that far if I am lucky. Unfortunatly I have very little to go on in Sam Chien. There is a great post on Iron Wire from a few months back. I reccomend finding it and reading it. There actually may be 2 or 3.

Sam Chien (3 battles I think) is a popular form around Fukien. It has made its way into Japan and/or Okanawa and has taken on a life of its own there. I think Its roots are in white crane style. That is about the limit of my knowledge on that form.

Iron Wire was brought into Hung Gar probably around the mid to later 1800's. It is quite unique in my experience from all other forms. It is an internal form, atleast in part. It does have fighting applications, though I think this is not the real significance of the form. This form develops energy and contains the special bridges in it, which are applications. It develops chi and excercises the differrent body organs. There are 5, I think, unique sounds that are used to target each organ. Each sound represents an emotion. This form supposedly makes the body strong as well as developing chi and conditioning the organs.

The form has dynamic tension in it, but it is not all tension as some seem to think. It plays on the yin and yang as well, so you will find soft parts and hard parts. It is a very advanced and sophisticated form.

Not much new here probably, but hopefully it helps.
Tom
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[hasayfu]

wonderpalm writes:
"does not seem to require you to tense the muscles of the body, rather the allignment of the body/limbs tenses the muscles for you. Does this statement tho rather brief and simple relate to how the Iron wire set is performed?"

Close. Like Tom says, it has tension of ligaments not muscle. Alignment is key. many other things happening too.

[R]

Iron wire is a kung fu system all of its own that was , as mentioned, added to the Hung gar system not that long ago.

The sil lum system of Tit Kiu Sam has had this set longer and I understood that it was admired and later added to the Hung gar system.

One thing that is interesting is that it is a starting set in that lineage and not an advanced student only set as occurs in the Wong Fei Hung lineages.

Interesting to see how different lineages approach things.

Cheers, R

[HuangKaiVun]

Sam Chien is excellent for training fighting power and flexibility.

But tensing the muscles, whether it be from body alignment or physical forcing, is tensing the muscles.

Without practicing muscle tension, your kung fu will not be strong enough to withstand opponents in real combat scenarios who are intent on hurting you.

Building combat resistance via sets like Sam Chien is crucial in the development of a kung fu fighter. The strength and power gained from this set helps a person give and take powerful strikes.

In addition, the strength gained from practicing this set properly helps prevent opponents from grappling you all over the place in a real fight.

If anybody doesn't believe me, try sparring against a skilled Greco Roman wrestler, trained US military man, or BJJ/MMA stylist.

The instant they GRAB YOU, you'll find out that you'll need every bit of tension your body can give you.

[TenTigers]

or..try punching a kyukushin-kai man and see where it gets you.
but..that being said, there is a difference between tense, and having tension, or being relaxed and being limp. This is 'sung'. There is a certain amount of tension of the ligaments and tendons when performing moves with proper structure, but it is not tense, or rigid. Sam Jien Kuen can be performed many ways,the first being with strong tension,later to develop into a 'relaxed tension' for lack of a better word. This is sung. Eventually, the practitioner can absorb strikes to the body not only with less tension, but upon inhaling as well. Reverse breathing is key to developing this skill. Iron wire is about release of tension,not simply tension. Release of tension develops true power.-my two cents

[joedoe]

You have obviously not practised Sam Chien if you think it is about tensing the muscles. Couldn't be further from the truth.

[HuangKaiVun]

And I can see that you've never sparred a grappler in your life, joedoe.

The truth will hit you the moment you hit the floor.

[joedoe]

And pray tell, how can you tell that from what I have said? And what does grappling have to do with how Sum Chien is practised?

[Lowlynobody]

"They" must have changed something in the matrix for I have a strong sense of da ja voo......

[joedoe]

But didn't you just say that?

A glitch in the Matrix? Hmmmm

I'm hearing ya.

[jon]

"In addition, the strength gained from practicing this set properly helps prevent opponents from grappling you all over the place in a real fight.

If anybody doesn't believe me, try sparring against a skilled Greco Roman wrestler, trained US military man, or BJJ/MMA stylist.

The instant they GRAB YOU, you'll find out that you'll need every bit of tension your body can give you."


* This couldnt be more wrong.
I have trained with groundfighters and skilled grapplers, im yet to meet *one* who is tense.
Good grappling relys on sensitivity and simple physics, by tensing your muscles you not only allow for your opponent to read your movements much more effectively but the tension in your limbs will also act as a more effective lever making it *much* easyer to
break your structure.


The whole concept of excess tension in any good martial arts system is wrong wrong wrong. Tension is *not* something which helps you fight in *any* way. If your mucles are tense then you reduse the speed in the affected area as your cannot move it as freely. Considering the force equals mass times acceleration its easy to see why a tense limb cannot do the same amount of damage a relaxed one will.


Honestly watch a professional boxer, watch a Gracie perform BJJ, watch a Judo practioner perform a throw. You will *not* see them straining there way though techniques with there blood vessals bursting, infact it will be quite the opposite. Ask yourself how Hellio Gracie can still perform his BJJ in his late years, ill tell you now its not becouse of him still being able to tense his muscles.

Honestly for all your talk about *real* combat you could at least try being logical in your evaluations.

[Fred Sanford]

* This couldnt be more wrong.

Honestly for all your talk about *real* combat you could at least try being logical in your evaluations.

LOL@ HuangKaiVun

[HuangKaiVun]

Come on over to my school, jon and Sanford (whatever your name really is - Paul Meyer or whatever).

Let's put my tension filled Sam Chien against your no-tension "logic" in a sparring match.

Perhaps you do have stuff to show me, especially jon who's a skilled Hung Ga (among other things) fighter.

Nobody needs to get physically hurt - just a polite invitation to test skills and philosophy from one martial artist to another.


By the way Meyer, I'm still awaiting the visit you said you'd make.

I'm not interested in fighting with you - I'm interested in meeting you in person. \We'll probably get along just fine.

If you are tied up for now, that's OK. I'm going to be around and so are you.