Iron wire.......Sum Chien

[HuangKaiVun]

Who the heck cares how it's pronounced in English?

Sanchin
Sam chiem
San zhan

Those are some of the ways Chinese people like ME pronounce that term.

For the record, I'm a native Taiwanese speaker with a Japanese educated grandmother who spoke the language around the house from time to time. Chances are that my pronunciation of this term is better than that of yours, dezhen2001.

If it can give and take hits against people, that's what counts.

[TenTigers]

not to burst yer bubble, but...
learning samchien mfrom a japanese judoka who did shotokan is like learning ninjutsu from a shaolin monk who learned wing chun.
Sanchin kata is not part of the shotokan syllabus. At least not authentic, traditional Shotokan. Perhaps he learned it from an okinawan stylist, or from a go-ju practitioner. Sanchin was brought to okinawa from fukien. It then emegrated to Japan. But not in the shotokan system proper. Not flaming, just tracing your sanchin lineage. I myself have learned sanchin kata from an okinawan gojuryu instructor, and from a Kyukushin-kai instructor, as well as samjien from a ngor mei p'ai instructor. I have also seen uechiryu sanchin, and ngor cho versions, all similar ,all different. I am looking foward to seeing fukien white crane version. Anyone have it on tape?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I learned my Sam Chien from a Japanese karate master who once trained a US Olympic Silver medalist judoka.

He was a 6th degree shotokan black belt who, to this date, was the toughest karateka and one of the greatest martial arts master I've ever seen. This man had fought serious fights in both Japan and the US - and had the TENSION to prove it.

As of this moment, we don't have any matches between jon and serpent and myself or my students set up. Those two weaklings and their weakling teachers would get their butts STOMPED by me or my students.

Nor has anybody from the Phoenix area who agrees with their spaghetti fu idiocy dared walk into my school on the corner of Warner and Dobson come to challenge me or our students. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND that they come and try our kung fu.

We need to really put this to the test. PM me to set it up.

Sam Chien between Chinese styles differs in many ways. Sam Chien from Chinese styles and Sam Chien from Japanese styles differ in many ways also. It would be incorrect to say that the way that the Japanese stylists do it is the only way to do it.

Huang, if you ever come down under give us a yell and I will introduce you to my sifu. Maybe he can show you how Sam Chien without tension works.

[dezhen2001]

in shotokan you have a kata called Hangetsu (1/2 moon) which is from the naha-te Seisan kata... Thats part of the 25 kata that make up the standard shotokan syllabus. Joedoe - thats the one i showed you first after we ate

Goju has sanchin but also tensho which is its partner... i also showed you tensho joedoe.. that was the one that was tense and then relaxed and more flowing etc. (if u can remember). Also the one i said i screwed up i couldnt remember all of sanchin.

For the record, I'm a native Taiwanese speaker with a Japanese educated grandmother who spoke the language around the house from time to time. Chances are that my pronunciation of this term is better than that of yours, dezhen2001.

Good for you What the heck does that have to do with learning a CHINESE form called Sam chien from JAPANESE karate master i dunno? I have studied shotokan for 13 years and also learned hangetsu, sanchin and tensho and they are WAY different to the Ngo Chor saam chien joedoe does. Ive seen it and FELT it first hand.

If it can give and take hits against people, that's what counts.

Not really when youre arguing about there only being one way to do the form and we are saying there is many...

dawood

[jon]

"I learned my Sam Chien from a Japanese karate master who once trained a US Olympic Silver medalist judoka."
* So which video was this from then?

"He was a 6th degree shotokan black belt who, to this date, was the toughest karateka and one of the greatest martial arts master I've ever seen. This man had fought serious fights in both Japan and the US - and had the TENSION to prove it."
* Poor guy really should learn to relax all that stress and tension cant be good for the heart

"As of this moment, we don't have any matches between jon and serpent and myself or my students set up. Those two weaklings and their weakling teachers would get their butts STOMPED by me or my students."
* Sniff, please stop scaring me...
If you would only fly half way around the world and pay me a visit we could sort this all out, sigh

"Nor has anybody from the Phoenix area who agrees with their spaghetti fu idiocy dared walk into my school on the corner of Warner and Dobson come to challenge me or our students. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND that they come and try our kung fu. "
* Maybe thats becouse your school exists only in your mind?
Where its probarly very easy to insure that you have lots of high quality students who never question your obviously insane judgement


"We need to really put this to the test. PM me to set it up."
* I think the *test* has just been done and you have failed miserably


You wanna yell some more about this or are we done here yet?

[brassmonkey]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...5&pagenumber=3

[HuangKaiVun]

My sensei did better sanchin than most of the ngo cho kun guys I've seen.

Tomo Kidachi was his name. 6th degree black belt. That guy was a top level judoka who'd stomp anybody, including your (and my) old Hung Ga sifu in Long Island, TenTigers.

In fact, I have yet to see ANY sifu that could match his skill and reflexes in a real fight. I'd take him in a real streetfight over any of the top combat kung fu fighters in the world, including Li Tai Liang or Su Dong Chen or even Wang Shu Jin (he of the 300 lb Bagua/Hsing I lineage). And no doubt I'd take him over most of the sifus you guys purportedly study with.

When that guy grabbed you, it was like being stuck in a vice. He had all the power one could ask from a 5'6" 170-180 lb old master of the martial arts. When he hit you, it was like being struck by a board. He could groundfight, he could grapple, he fought challenge matches (advised us to end them by "choking", and this was before the days of the UFC), and he demonstrated it day in and day out.

Regularly he manhandled us college age students. These were young big guys and we were no match for him at the time. Even now, my power isn't like his and may never be (though power alone doesn't decide a combat outcome).

Supposedly one of his judo students went to become a silver medalist for the US Olympic team. Don't know the name of the guy, though.

If anybody goes up to Albany New York and looks for Tomo Kidachi (who is probably retired), you'll see who I'm talking about.

He's about 70 now, but he'd probably fight you if you provoked him.

[dezhen2001]

but again HKV the karate sanchin and the ngo chor sam chien are completely different forms.... completely different methods of doing things. No one is arguing that tension isnt valid or wouldnt work... its just different to the sam chien that joedoe and some others know. Also sanchin is more tense, where tensho teaches you tension and relaxation so you can control your body. In the goju ryu i was exposed to they were taught in a pair.

Glad you had a good sensei, sometimes i was lucky enough to train under keinosuke enoeda or kanazawa sensei who are the JKA people in europe/uk. They were some the last students of funakoshi sensei

Its kinda cool that even now kanazawa-sensei is 9th dan, hes studying taijiquan and aikido

dawood

[joedoe]

Thank you for answering my question. As Dezhen2001 says, there is a difference between Karate Sanchin and, at least Ngor Chor's Sam Chien.

I don't see any point in further debating this as the only way for me to explain what I mean - and I am guessing for you to explain what you mean - is for us to show it to each other. However as we are probably about 8500 miles apart that is not going to happen soon.

I also don't see any point in speculating about the fighting ability of any of the posters here, or the fighting ability of their teachers as again this can only be verified in person. Let's just say that I have met jon & Serpent and I know of their teachers and I can assure you they have good reputations as both teachers and fighters.

So let's just let the thread die a natural death and one day when we can meet in person we can discuss it again properly

[dezhen2001]

hey you met me too and know i cant fight out of a wet paper bag

can do a good headstand though

dawood

[Ma Chi]

Hi,
a friend of mine suggested that I buy and practise the ngo chor sum chien form.
http://cfw2.com/product.asp?s=cfw&pf...01&dept_id=252

I would like to ask all of you that you know this form (especially joedoe) if it is only for receiving blows or it is for health too.
Also is it easy to learn it from this/any video? I have no former experience.
Is it dangerous (for the health) to do mistakes when one practises this form?
Does it use any sound?

Thanks in advance.

[HuangKaiVun]

Then tell jon and serpent to stop talking **** about me, joedoe.

Or at least tell them to TRAIN so that when they face me, they'll be ready to show me how bad I am.

In real combat, it doesn't matter what style of sanchin you do. If it kicks butt, that's what counts.

Most people on this thread who don't use sanchin in combat have demonstrated their ignorance on that issue.

[dezhen2001]

here we go again.

dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Ma Chi
Hi,
a friend of mine suggested that I buy and practise the ngo chor sum chien form.
http://cfw2.com/product.asp?s=cfw&pf...01&dept_id=252

I would like to ask all of you that you know this form (especially joedoe) if it is only for receiving blows or it is for health too.
Also is it easy to learn it from this/any video? I have no former experience.
Is it dangerous (for the health) to do mistakes when one practises this form?
Does it use any sound?

Thanks in advance.

Ngor Chor Sam Chien is a fairly simple form at face value, however there is a lot of depth in the form too. It is not just for learning to received blows - in fact there is a saying in Ngor Chor that 40% of the art is in Sam Chien. How easy it is to learn from video depends on how deeply you want to understand the form. You will never get a deep understanding of Sam Chien without a teacher and/or training partners, however you will get a basic understanding of the movements (and hopefully the breathing).

The lineage that video is from do their forms slightly differently to my lineage (as you can probably expect) but their is similarity. I can only give you answers based on the way we do the forms.

I have never heard that it is dangerous to do Sam Chien incorrectly, however that is only within our lineage. I have heard that some Japanese versions (Sanchin) do advise caution due to the blood pressure issues surrounding the tension in the way they do the form. As for the lineage in the video, I suspect it should be safe, otherwise they probably would not be teaching it on video.

Sam Chien does not use a shout, however there is a lot of use of hard expelling of the breath.

Hope that answers your questions

[joedoe]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Then tell jon and serpent to stop talking **** about me, joedoe.

Or at least tell them to TRAIN so that when they face me, they'll be ready to show me how bad I am.

In real combat, it doesn't matter what style of sanchin you do. If it kicks butt, that's what counts.

Most people on this thread who don't use sanchin in combat have demonstrated their ignorance on that issue.

HKV - I cannot tell them to do anything. We have all met and we all have a great deal of respect for one another, however I am far from being in a position to tell them to do anything.

I also doubt that they are going to face you any time soon. As I said before, there is probably about 8500 miles separating myself, jon, and Serpent from you and as you are too busy teaching to be able to leave there that means our meeting will have to wait until one of us Aussies can make it to Phoenix. I can tell you that in my case, that probably isn't going to happen too soon.

I can assure you however that both Serpent and jon train very hard - way harder than I do - and if you ever do meet them for a test of hands they will be as ready as they will ever be.

Like I said before, there is no point arguing about this any more. I will continue to do my Sam Chien my way, and you can do yours your way, and hopefully it is good for both of us