Iron wire.......Sum Chien

[jon]

On the one hand i think its very upfront of you to give an invite to your school to someone you have never met in person. Especialy under the current context.

On the other hand i cant help feeling its compleately futile to offer challenges (even friendly ones) to someone who is clearly from another country.

This is an internet forum not a gladitorial pit, It would have been much more effective for you to have made some kind of an effort to back up your point with a little thought rather than simply offering up your fists.

[Serpent]

HKV is often wrong. And when he is, and the answer can't be found in his Ashida Kim books or anywhere else, he simply tries to end the argument by offering a "friendly challenge" to his school. Of course, he knows that no one would come because most people are thousands of miles, if not continents, apart, but I guess he thinks it's better than admitting he's wrong or actually offering up some kind explanation for his nonsense.

[omarthefish]

I remember getting into one of these arguments with HVK a while back when I was new to this forum but it think I gotto side with him on this one. And you'd be surprised who you may meet. I've met online folks both in China and in LA. I wouldn't go there specifically to meet someone but you never know where life will take you.

Jon says he never met a good groundfighter who was tense. But then every wrestler I've ever met has talked about how every fiber in their whole body is so exhausted after rolling. Wresting without any tension is a crock. Relaxed is a relative term. When we talk about being relaxed in athletic endevors what we really mean is not to have any extraneous tension. Neurons fire --- muscles contract. That's muscular tension. F = ma is a red herring that has been done to death on other threads. We don't throw our arm through the air at someone, we use muscle contractions to propell it.

I haven't trained Iron Wire either, but I know it's got a LOT of dynamic tension involved. The opening to sup yin (10 forms) has the basic idea intoduced. The key is just to have the tension in the right place at the right time, not to tense any of the extraneious places, especially the neck.

I see the same thing in WC. There are certain folks who are so in love with the idea of effortless force and 'not meeting force with force' that I can just blast right through %80 of their blocks! Even taiji is supposed to be a blend of hard and soft mutually reinforcing. If your all soft, your opponent can ignore you. You won't be "iron wrapped in cotton" you'll just be a big ball of cotton.

[joedoe]

Of course there has to be some tensing of the muscles, otherwise how do you move? However, Sum Chien is not about tensing muscles as HKV so stridently pointed out. In fact, you are taught that tensing the muscles is one of the last things you want to be doing in Sum Chien.

My main question to HKV is this - Have you ever trained in a Chinese art that taught Sum Chien? If not, how are you qualified to comment?

You still have not explained to me how you know if I have fought a grappler or not simply from my posting either.

I recently met jon and he can tell you how tense Sum Chien is.

I'll tell you what, on the off chance that I happen to be in Arizona, I will try to look you up. I visit the USA once every year or two, maybe one day I'll be in your neck of the woods. Friendly meeting and all.

[jon]

omarthefish
I believe its actualy as Joedoe just pointed out physicaly impossible to move with absolutely *no* tension. The tension is obviously required in various postural transitions and it also helps to keep you standing on your feet instead of falling into a lump on the floor.
Here is what i originaly posted...
"The whole concept of excess tension in any good martial arts system is wrong wrong wrong."
The key word here is *excess*, most good martial arts is a slow process of eliminating excess tension and replacing it with good body mechanics and proper technique.

Your example of a wrestler being tired after wrestling i dont really see the relevence of. Physical excercise makes you tired, no matter how relaxed your muscles are. Its fairly obvious that someone using relaxed correct technique as opposed rigid uncontrolled ones will certainly tire out less quickly.
I get tired after practicing my Taiji for a while and i dont really think thats becouse im tensing my muscles a lot.



Most of us are picking on HKV becouse he is trying to effectively state that sets like Tit Sing and Sam Chien are about flexing your muscles and the majority of us are trying to point out that this is a very small part of the total equation.

Joedoe mentioned before that i had the pleasure of meeting up with him and several others for a bit of a get together. We where lucky enough to also have Joedoe perform Sam Chien for us. Not only is the execution of his form extreamly powerfull and structured but you can litteraly see the power shaking down his arms. It is not a tense power but rather the result of proper alignment and breathing.
I also got to make a feeble attempt at stopping him from driving his arms forward which felt like trying to stop a powered engine.

Considering im an internal practioner i dont think i would have been quite so impressed if the demonstration had consisted of Joedoe flexing his muscles and rigid dead force.
As i stated i was very impressed and could clearly see that the set had a lot more going for it than simply a fancy way to flex your bicepts (which is what HKV seems to be hinting towards).

[joedoe]

Thanks for the raps bud. I'll pay you later

OT - it was really good to finally meet up with you. All round it was a most informative session. Hopefully we can do it again soon.

[Serpent]

Sounds cool - sorry I missed it. Next time hopefully.

[joedoe]

Serpent, your PM box is full.

[joedoe]

I just realised I have to be in Indianapolis at the start of August for a wedding. If you are keen to meet up, I can catch you then. Unfortunately I cannot make it to Arizona on this trip, but I figured if I am travelling 8000 miles you could travel a few yourself . How about it then? If Indy is too far, then I could probably meet you at LA airport during my stopover.

OMG I am sounding like Ralek

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
Serpent, your PM box is full.

Sorry. Check it now.

[HuangKaiVun]

Thanks for the offer, joedoe. At least you're willing to step up to the plate.

Unfortunately, I've gotta teach right now all the time. I don't have time to visit Indianapolis. My business is just getting off the ground.

In case you get the chance, my school is:

Huang's Kung Fu Academy
2058 W. Warner Road
Chandler AZ 85224.

omarthefish, your friends feel the same way about grappling that my students and I do.

I wonder how they would do against jon's no-tension fu. I bet they'd do REALLY WELL.

And if I'm so wrong, my students (particularly the military types) must be as wrong as I am.

But trust me, jon and serpent would be better off messing with ME than with THEM.

[joedoe]

I was wondering if you have trained Sum Chien, and if so from which art? The reason I ask is that the Sam Chien practiced by Karate styles (they call it sanchin) tends to be about muscle tensing. From what I have seen of Sum Chien in Chinese styles (including the style I practice) are very much about structure and not tension in the muscles.

BTW, I understand jon has sparred against grapplers, and in particular BJJ exponents so he knows a little about fighting them. Maybe those he has sparred against follow a different philosophy than those you have encountered .

Well, I guess I won't catch you on my next trip. Maybe after.

[Serpent]

Ah, Huang, what a shame you can't spare the time. Sounds like punking out to me.

[jon]

HuangKaiVun

You and your half baked internet challenges can kiss my proverbial behind.
If your so keen to see my stuff then jump on a plane and come and see me. Im sure your *buisness* will wait for you for you while your gone. Or are you scared your students would just attend a real school and see what they are missing?

Your only experience obviously comes from video tapes, if its not then name *one real* sifu who will claim you as one of there senior students?
The fact that you sprout off as though you know about things you clearly have no idea about only insenses people like me who are way to impulsive to know better.

"I wonder how they would do against jon's no-tension fu. I bet they'd do REALLY WELL."
* Im honestly going to put this in my sig, its just to darn cool to resist.

"And if I'm so wrong, my students (particularly the military types) must be as wrong as I am."
*I feel *so* sorry for the poor saps you claim to teach.
Do you even have a real system to teach? I mean other than the crap you obviously made up yourself?

"But trust me, jon and serpent would be better off messing with ME than with THEM."
* You bet your darn fur we would, not only is it compleately unethical to make challenges on behalf of people you claim as your students but i would take pleasure in wiping the floor with you just off plain principal.


Honestly now you have just annoyed me, i realise your thick as two short planks and have about as much commen sence as your average hamster but im sick to death of your insane challenges.

Your pathetic posturing and sad meaningless drivel lead me to believe your simply not worth the bother of communicating with. Im betting no matter what transpires you will be too stupid to understand the outcome anyway.

[Fred Sanford]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!