Wing chun and Kiu sau!

[Chango]

I wanted to bring a productive thread to the forum concerning kiu sau. HFY aside from having Chi sau training has a distinct and focused Kiu sao training dealing with understanding the realatonship of Time,space,and energy. I also find that chi sim has kiu sau as well dealing with this realationship. Both address combat from the different ranges as well as proper energy and position. I would like to open a discussion on kiu sau and what roll it plays in WCK. I personally believe that it is the starting point for learning how to use the bridge against the grappler, kicker etc.... with the use of the bridge with out entering into the proper conditions for "chi sao" offering the elements of real "live" energy reactions and interaction with an opponent or classmate. What do you think?

[Wingman]

Hi Chango,

Please provide more information about kiu sau for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the term.

How do you start kiu sau?
Does it start with the 2 practitioners already in contact? or non-contact?
What techniques are allowed (or not allowed) during kiu sau?
Are the techniques limited to WC techniques? or do you incorporate techniques from other martial arts?
What is in kiu sau that is not found in chi sao (and vice versa)?
Does kiu sau have an equivalent English translation?

These are just some of my questions. I hope you will be able to answer them.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Chango,

I am wrestling with Kiu Sau a little in my Hung Gar training. It seems for us it is a basic hand for dealing with an oponent in a similar maner as mun sau may be for wing chun. This is not completly ture, but the best that I can describe it. It goes out and feels the way, often it will bridge the opponents hand. If it enconters something it will be grabed and pulled back witha punch shooting out to meet the opponent.

I am currious about the kiu sau in HFY and if it is at all related to the Hung Kuen. For those playing at home, Kiu Sau in hung gar is the hand you see with the one finger pointing upwards.

TOm
________
SHOWER WET

[planetwc]

So Kiu Sau would be the HFY term for bridging both pre contact and establishment of the bridge with an opponent?

There is indeed the concepts of structure, position, forward motion, timing and sensitivity involved in those stages.

There are also differences in approach in terms of how the bridge is "deployed" for lack of a better term.

[yuanfen]

Bridgework is important in most nan chuan. And the bridge and its uses is very important in good wing chun.

Tan, bong and fok is not just about the hands-

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by planetwc
So Kiu Sau would be the HFY term for bridging both pre contact and establishment of the bridge with an opponent?

From my limited experience my understanding of kiu sau is that through forearm contact it serves as a buffer or safety zone, using structure and energenics sensitivity, between you and the opponent. It allows a time to safely and defensively gather knowledge about your oppenent

From kiu sau you could flow to chi sau (if needed) or to chum kiu (if needed).

[reneritchie]

Is Kiu Sao being used here similar to or encompassing of San Sao, or as transition between San Sao and Chi Sao (the transition between free and sticking arms)?

[yuanfen]

Repackaged wc concepts in new bottles.
Kiu is important in good old wing chun...
the second form is chum kiu-
its about the bridge....among other things.

[canglong]

Rene,
To answer your question though, no, kiu sau is not a transitional phase. To some it might be seen as chi sau without the use of strinking point technology used to keep an opponent under control before chi sau range. Going back to the thread about ranges you might think of it in these terms. Long kick range>> short kick range>>long arm/backhand range>>short arm/front hand range>> close quarter combat range all weapons deployable and grappling range>>. If we dissect close quarter combat range for the purpose of defining time and space moving back from chi sau range for the purpose of this discussion we have kiu sau which defines all things possible in close quarter combat range after short arm/front hand range but before chi sau/strinking point range, thus the distance is such if someone moves to engage in chi sau before kiu sau the person using kiu sau with proper structure would have a time and space advantage using the kui sau. This is my own personal fau kiu understanding at this time and space in my early stages of HFY training.

[Rolling_Hand]

William E,

It's my pleasure to see a real Martial Artist like you here!

Looking forward to learn more about the HFY and Chi Sim Kiu Sao from you.

Roger

[Mckind13]

Very sad indeed.


My observation of Kiu Sau from my personal training is that all bridges are kiu sau. Any time I make contact, this is in essence Kiu Sau and affords me the benefits of creating a bridge with my arms. As a note, I have used the Kiu Sau term here because it is the topic, not because it is a commonly used phrase in my training.

My observations of the HFY Kiu Sau are that it is very structured and deliberate in the exact techniques that can and cannot be deployed. It also seems to not only be outside the Chi Sau range of application but operate at a very different distance. A distance where I might be rushing in or sinking the opponent’s bridge. This is of course my view and I did only get to see it during a weekend seminar in Dayton. For those more familiar with Andreas Hoffman’s (sp) Weng Chun, I practiced a drill at his seminar that was more akin to this. He used, in that drill, both hands simultaneously. In the HFY KS drill it seems there is a different focus on angles and well as a dominant hand and subordinate hand in the drill.

Please understand this is my take on it.
Peace and don't feed the trolls or trollops


David

[tparkerkfo]

OK, I am getting lost. Before we go on, lets define some stuff for those of us that are having a hard time.

Kiu Sau
Chi Sau
Chum Kiu

What are these in reference to HFY? Are they hands? Are they actions, verbs, motions? Are they ideas and concepts?

Kiu sau to me is a hand that is like a feeler. Chi Sau is both an excercise (doing sticky hands) and a concept (sticking). Chum Kiu for me is mostly a sinkning and searching bridge. It seems these defineitions are not congruent with the discussion above. Can some one fill me in?

Thanks
Tom
________
Marijuana Medical

[yuanfen]

Tom-

Chum kiu--- asa a form has many functions--- but in the context of this thread---"the searching for the bridge" meaning should be noted..the name "bridge" is symbolic-- and shows up in the kuit-- if you dont find the bridge- make one!!

The business of sistinguishing between chi sao and its range is
short sighted. Good chi sao --- not the quick mechanical rolling or eagerness for striking that some folks do- is not chi sao at its best
and leads to all kinds of aberrations on "fixes" and claimsabout the alleged limitations or insufficinecncy of wing chun.

Good chi sao teaches auto reaction to pre contact and contact
and post contact anywhere.

Bridge work and bridge contact work is there in wing chun.
Remember- soft cotton belly(ahem!!No comment invited), glass head and IRON BRIDGES- feet like mountains, hands like lightning are all part of wing chun lore. Structurally in statics the part of the forearm past the wrist to the beginning of the forearm muscle
bulge is the bridge. Dynamically- any contact becomes the bridge.

There are wing chun bridge drills for hand and foot bridges
and timing drills..

Wing chun has extensive so called hand motions--- but the right bridging makes them all possible. So if you allow someone to control your bridge- it makes the hand motions that much more difficult.

So kiu can have several levels of inter-related meanings.- as a specific part of the body, asa foundation for hand mudras and shapes, as a pathway to the gates or metaphorically for contact or linkage.

Nothing new under the sun. Wing chun 102.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by yuanfen

Good chi sao teaches auto reaction to pre contact and contact
and post contact anywhere.

I always thought that chi sau (from a Yip Man perspective) taught how to understand energies at a bridge. By practicing chi sau you become more sensitive once contact is made and you are able to exploit your enemies structure and energic distortions. If this definition is correct (and it might not be- that is why I am asking) then how can you have "chi sau" before or after contact? Wouldn't these time frames (pre and post contact) be more like bai jong and wui mah?

Thanks!

[yuanfen]

When one understands lat sau, bai jong and chi sao as a
interrrelated dynamic phenomenon where the body acts as a single but not frozen unit that is Ip Man wing chun 102.

Many folks dont get past 101.

If I move towards "you" in any way (different stances, steps and looks), I am seeking and expecting contact-anywhere.

Whiole chi sao sunchronizes bon-tan-fok-- the result is that it synchronizes everything else too including fak , biu, gan etc-
the plants that grow out of the seeds.