Interview of Wing Lam on Iron Palm Article

[J]

Hello,

I was reading the article on iron palm by Mark Jenssen, a student of Wing Lam, and a question came to my mind. In the beginning of the article, the author states that there are two general types of iron palm training: direct media contact and media in a bag. The author states that the direct media method comes from the North and the media in a bag comes from the South. Then, he states that Gu Ru Zhang's iron palm comes from the North.

If this is true, why do all of the Bak Sil Lum schools train iron palm with media in the bag (author claims southern styles)? This is a bit of a contradiction. Of course, there are no absolutes so the authors generalities are just that, generalities.

Any comments? If you're reading this Gene, perhaps this is a good question to ask the author.

I have other comments on the article, but I think this is a self-contained question.

Cheers,
J

[GeneChing]

Mark Jenson is on this forum and since he did article, he should be better prepared to answer than me. Hopefully he'll chime in on this one. We train at different times at Lam Kwoon, so the only time we see each other is here on the forum. Ironic, yes?

But I will take a stab at this one.

First off, the NS distinction is always a generalization - there are plenty of exceptions, but like any generalization, it describes a trend.

As for Lam Sifu's comment, he once told me that the whole heating of the media image made so popular by the movies was only sued in the north and the heat was not to condition the hands, it was just to warm up the media, so this might be a factor in the NS distinction. Lam has always been critical of the loose media method. The method that KYC method he uses now and presents on his video is modified - although not in regards to bagged/not bagged.

Most interesting is that the Bak part of Bak Sil Lum is dubious. Check my eZine article Shaolin vs. Bak Sil Lum to find out why.

Shoot us the other comments.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

[The Willow Sword]

"Journal of Asian Martial Arts" what i great magazine, and yours as well GENE. i find this one to be very interesting indeed. i have done the iron palm and iron bone/shin training. what makes this article interesting for me is the table that Wing Lam uses. (wish i had something like that) training methods are different inthis relm and there is a certain amount of rish that occurs when doing this,,for arthritis and joint problems can occur later in life with this training. The medicine is soooo important with this for if you only have a little bit of it,,like they sell in stores that, in my opinion is not enough. you need the formula and the booze to saok it in and have at least 3 gallons of it.
for us in the SD school our iron training does not include heating the jow formula to saok the hands in and i wish that we would implement that.
the term is "iron wrapped in silk" you do not want to damage yourrself so that there is no feeling in your hands legs body. the skin SHOULD be nice looking. plus i reccomend that any of you starting the iron training that you first alot your budget to include massage for a monthor trade out with someone. Strengthen the Fascia before anything else happens. i know i was once a massage therapist(noncertified,but went to school for it) and i know that it is extremely important to have your body's fascia trained and able to deal with the pounding slapping and striking.

Many respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[shaolin_knight]

Gene,
How was it modified and by whom?

[templefist]

there is also another method to use when doing iron palm. you use a pot filled with mung beans, gravel or iron shot (whichever stage you are at). this way is a little better than the use of the striking bags as you are more in contact with the beans/iron or whatever. its very messy though.
there are far other methods too (northern and southern), red sand palm, splashing hands, etc.

[GeneChing]

My sifu Wing Lam modified it. If you know the KYC style on his video, he changed the last strike from a crane's beak jab to a jab with fingertips spread. He reason was that the crane's beak method tends to split the fingernails, while a fingertip spread jab strenghtened the fingertips more uniformly. It also messes up the distribution spread of your media in your bag. The crane's beak makes more sense for BSL, because we never really do a fingertips spread jab, but do many crane's beak strikes, like in #5 and #9. However, Lam sifu is right, the crane's beak method does tend to split the fingernails, something that ditdajow doesn't help. I tried the original method for a while after Lam sifu mentioned his modifications to me, and came to the same conclusions. Try it yourself.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

[shaolin_knight]

Sounds like a good modification. I always wondered why the claw hand was used, I thought maybe it was a southern influence.

[J]

Hello,

There are three things, but I can only remember two of them. Before I go into them, I just want to say that I enjoyed the article. It was well-written and comprehensive. Congratulations to the Wing Lam school.

1) The article states that "the bearings must be iron or steel because you want them to rust. Over time and use, the rust will get absorbed into the hands giving them a heavy iron like quality". On this statement, I'm not going to dance around the issue. I believe this is a bogus statement. Iron doesn't refer to iron entering the body. It's like saying hard as iron, soft like cotton would require cotton ingestion. It refers to the end result.

Interestingly, some systems believe that metal training has a deletorious effect. These systems will not touch metal after qigong because it screws with the energies.

2) The applications pictures. I know these are contrived and just there for demoing basics/applications so I won't nit-pick. I am wondering about the initial hand positions in the fighting stance. Many systems choose to place one hand at throat level and one at heart level to cover vital targets. Wing Lam and the attacker have their hands at the same level. This leads me to believe that this is the trained hand position. Is this the taught fighting hand position? What are their goals?

Gene, I didn't see the shaolin vs bak sil lum e-zine article. Which issue? I did see the Gan Feng Chi series, but I didn't see a relation to this topic. Just good folklore.

Cheers,
J

[GeneChing]

The absorption of rust is a common legend surrounding IP. Some say that the practitioner could absorb the toxins, then transmit them when hitting, leaving a rust welt on the victim. There is another legend about cinnabar palm which is much the same. I'd have to see prove of that too, but like the Gan Fengchi story, it's good folklore.

Unfortunately I don't have the article in front of my so I cannot comment on the hand postions. My guess is the studnet is simply mirroring the master. Sometimes, we will leave on target area open as an invitation, and perhaps this is what my Sifu was doing.

The BSL vs. Shaolin article is here:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezin...baksillum.html
Did you try our internal search engine? It should have popped up right away.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

[Shaolindynasty]

What exactly is the Wing Lam method Iron palm and Iron body? Is it just conditioning or is there "soft" qigong exercises that go along with it to? I think I am going to get the video but what exactly does his method contain?
P.s. I saw the intro to WL vid and their demos of hard qigong were excellent.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net
New original products!!!!
www.cafepress.com/dynastystore

[shaolin_knight]

What is it about cinnabar? In the Americas, important people were covered in it during their burial. My theory is that the monks used it for a type of ceromony, and a regular person saw them rubbing their hands in red sand and thought it gave them special powers (as people were fascinated by the monks "powers").

[GeneChing]

sd: Get the video or read one of the many articles on his method. It's pretty simple really.

sk: Cinnabar palm is just a passing legend. If memory serves, it was one of the 72 consummate skills. Check that book, if you can find a copy...

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

[Shaolindynasty]

Where can I find the article?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net
New original products!!!!
www.cafepress.com/dynastystore

[WingLamStudent]

So I have been off the forum for a while and my brothers at Lam Kwoon have called my attention to the comments on my Iron Palm article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. I will try to address each of the issues below:

J:
Yes KYC was a NS master and it was through him to Yim Shang Mo that my Sifu learned Iron Palm. My comment is this, just because he was considered a “northern” stylist does not mean that he can not use an IP method from anywhere else. Al that is know is that this was the method he taught and that the method, over the years, became known as a northern method. It is only a way to make a distinction. My brother Gene is correct in saying that the heating of the media is so that it will not freeze in winter. Monks thrusting their hands into metal “sand” with fire under it is a good seen for a movie.

Willow Sword:
You can buy a “kit” of the table from www.wle.com and build one yourself.

shaolin_knight:
My Sifu did modify the last strike from a Crane’s beak to a Tiger Palm strike but this does not mean that you have to follow exactly. You can modify the strikes to any type of strike that might be dominant on your style – say a panther paw or a snake strike for example.

J:
Now for the good one:
1) Over the twenty years that I have been training in IP I have used the same iron ¼ inch balls in my bag. I have gone through many bags and as the bag get old, it turns a red rust color from the rust of the balls. After a 45-minute session on the bag, my hands are the same color. The combination of the sweat and the pounding has driven the powered rust into my skin. The same thing happens wit the mung beans too. Now here is the rub: does the conditioning make the hands like iron? No doubt about it. Does the rust contribute to this? I think so and so does my Sifu. How much … well probably not much but I can say with no hesitation that my hands are heavier.
2) Iron Palm can be supplemental to any CMA training and how the student hold their hands will be particular to any style – any ready stance that is comfortable is correct. Should the pictures have shown Wing Lam in a full Crane stance?

Shaolindynasty:
You can find the article in the Jounal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol 10 Number 2 .

Mark

[GeneChing]

You are opening pandoras' box with your comment to shaolin_knight... Be very careful, I'd call you on that one.

As for the coloration and heaviness, that can be accounted for from many other factors. You know the effects of overdosing on iron. Does it effect your bowels movements? ;)

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com