Really, how dangerous are knives?

[rogue]

OK **** dangerous.

But, unless the guy is working a 12 inch blade how many of the fancy knife moves are immediatly fatal?

[joedoe]

I am no expert on knives, but I remember a case here of a woman who was sick of being beaten by her husband so she stabbed him with a fruit knife. The knife was only 2 or 3 inches long, but she happened to stab him precisely between the ribs at the right place to pierce his heart.

Seems to me that even a short blade can deliver a fatal blow.

[sticky fingers]

I've never been in a knife fight (thank God) but 1 thing I've learnt in training is never,ever underestimate a knife wielder no matter how puny the blade seems.

A blade the width of your hand is long enough to puncture your heart. Less to slice open an artery and bleed to death...

The ppl who say to treat a knife as an extension of the hand are living in fantasy land. A lot of supposed knife disarming techniques taught in various schools are simply suicidal - you know the ones where the knife attacker makes a lunge from 10 feet away yelling KIIAA! - just doesn't happen in real life.

Just do this as en experiment - get a friend to attack you with a marker pen (wear eye protection when you do this). A friend untrained in martial arts is better. Then compare the marks you get with an anatomy book and see if any of the marks would have cut a major blood vessel.

[shaolin kungfu]

Just do this as en experiment - get a friend to attack you with a marker pen (wear eye protection when you do this). A friend untrained in martial arts is better. Then compare the marks you get with an anatomy book and see if any of the marks would have cut a major blood vessel.

Thats a good idea. I'll have to try it some time.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by sticky fingers
Just do this as en experiment - get a friend to attack you with a marker pen (wear eye protection when you do this). A friend untrained in martial arts is better. Then compare the marks you get with an anatomy book and see if any of the marks would have cut a major blood vessel.

While not a bad training method, it has one major drawback.

A Knife consist of a point and an edge along the blade, the marker only has the point.

Cheers.

[CrippledAvenger]

Simple solution... use water soluable paint on a trainer blade and some throw-away clothes. Or even just ink on a wooden blade, would work, maybe...

[rubthebuddha]

very. period.

even if a strike isn't immediately fatal, and you do wind up beating your attacker(s), what have you gained? he's gone, but you're still SOL, because you're bleeding like hell.

the idea of a knife as an extension of the hand is crap, because no hand can cut you like that.

they're also a pain in the ass to deal with when defending against someone with skill, because they're adjustable to many angles.

one big example of this is the typical defense taught to block a downward-stabbing knife -- the one in which the defender sticks both hands above his or her head and makes an "x" to block the strike. any good blade worker would adjust the blade and slash the hell out of that person's wrists and, if they want, step back and watch their victim bleed all over themselves. happens in the blink of an eye, and that person's hands are pretty much useless without lots of hospital work.

personally, i'm more spooked of a good knife fighter than i am a person with a gun -- at least in close range. ask any filipino artist how nasty a knife can be, and i'll be backed up on this one.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Simple solution... use water soluable paint on a trainer blade and some throw-away clothes. Or even just ink on a wooden blade, would work, maybe...

I guess Splat-ball paint might work.

Another slight problem I see with this method, the marker/paint might leave a mark on the clothing but it might not have been a penetrating cut/stab.
Unless you train bare-chested naturally.


Like I said a good method to get the awareness going, but I see limitations on using it as a judgement if a technique is effected.

Just some thoughts.

P.S.: Also check Darren Laurs articles about knifes.

[Chris McKinley]

rogue, I really can't believe you're asking that question. In all seriousness, I was under the impression that you had more experience/common sense than to ask whether a blade less than 12 inches in length were dangerous in combat. That's got newbie written all over it.

To provide you with some perspective, the typically preferred length of blade of a combat knife for professionals is typically 5 to 7 inches, though a 3 inch blade is what I would personally call a lower useful limit.

Your question also contains an absurd assumption--namely, that a blade need be long enough to produce immediately fatal wounds in order to be dangerous. The most immediate counter to that assumption might be the fact that one would need only approximately 1/4 to 1/2 inch of laceration depth to provide a possibly fatal wound to either the jugular vein or the femoral artery. Still, even such examples still miss the point. In as much as I do not need to administer immediately fatal blows with my bare hands in order to win a fight or even kill my opponent, I do not need to produce a fatal wound with a knife on a given strike in order to prevail in a given encounter or even to eventually kill him in the course of the fight.

Perhaps you only asked that question the way you did to spur discussion of the relative danger of varying lengths of blades or some such. I hope so, otherwise the question reflects a certain lack of common sense.

[CrippledAvenger]

One thing I'd like to throw out from my experience working with knives in a factory and on camping trips, is that it's sometimes really hard to even notice that you've been cut, badly, by a blade. I nearly lost the tipe of my left index finger cutting ties off boxes when I was 15 and didn't even notice until my foreman came running over. Factor in the adrenaline of a fight and you have the potential for bleeding to death before you even know you've been stabbed/cut.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
One thing I'd like to throw out from my experience working with knives in a factory and on camping trips, is that it's sometimes really hard to even notice that you've been cut, badly, by a blade. I nearly lost the tipe of my left index finger cutting ties off boxes when I was 15 and didn't even notice until my foreman came running over. Factor in the adrenaline of a fight and you have the potential for bleeding to death before you even know you've been stabbed/cut.

Fully agreed on that one, and I got similar experiences.

See how the Gurkha's marked enemy soldiers to be executed the next night.

[Serpent]

A lot of people badly stabbed in a fight will often testify that they thought they'd only been punched there until closer examination revealed a stab wound.

Knives, of any length, are bad, mmmkay.

[Mr Punch]

This stuck in my mind... rather there than somewhere else...!

Most major arteries and veins are within one inch of the skin. Two inches of blade, assuming some margin of error, should be enough to say goodbye. Three inches can reach your heart.

Read the stats on relative lengths and fatalities in attacks involving knives once... can't remember where... maybe that was a Laur piece...?

[sticky fingers]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=22064

[Mr Punch]

Here
-Typical death of a stab wound in homicide cases is 1 inch to 1.5 inches through the rib cage
-In most edged weapon attacks the victim received multiple knife wounds. The usual cause of death are usually the last few wounds of the overall attack
-Even short bladed knives can penetrate the abdomen by 8-10cm
-3cm allows penetration of the ribs
-4cm allows penetration of the heart
-because of the small surface area of a knife, the amount of force per unit area is TONS per square inch

Laur's info is different to the stuff I seemed to remember, so trust him over me!

Check out the first point particularly. And the third. Fun.