The Ultimate MATRIX: RELOADED thred (Major Spoilers)

[MAreader]

I saw the movie last night as I was invited out with some people after final exams. I thought the movie sucked on many levels, although the fight scenes really got boring for me. the wire stuff is done. I saw Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Overuse of CGI turns a movie into a Playstation 2 game. I think the plot of the series generaly sucks, and I'm really sick of comp sci. & engineering nerds trying to imitate kung fu when they know nothing of it. The kind of people who understand nothing of the subtleties between various styles, or even between different eastern cultures. You have japanese swords in these movies being used by kung fu exponents.

In watching the previews for the movie I see yet another martial arts movie coming out later this summer apparently called "kill bill". That movie looks like kung fu + Bring It On. It's a teenie movie or something. I'm sick of the fight scenes at arms length where everyone is playing paddy cake. No one is trying to end it. The average person goes to see this and then they think it represents martial arts in some kind of authentic way. Fighting isn't fencing.

Chinese martial arts are beautiful. There are many types(Emei, Shaolin, Wudang, Northwestern(chang chuan) etc.) but these movies just blend it all into one hoky exchange after another where people exchange lines in between strikes. It's silly and I think it just gives a false picture. And I wonder how interested most of these movie fans(or college nerd kung fu imitators) would be in the cultural and religious aspects of chinese martial arts. I wonder whether people who make these movies have any idea that they are denigrating the arts much of the time.

I love Jet Li. I love most of John Woo's movies. But I don't want every movie out there relying on kung fu to carry it. The Matrix indeed is hostile to religion, the movie itself has religious pretensions, and I don't want enlightenment(or shen dao) from the Wachowski brothers who made this movie. I'm not looking for that in a movie.

[MasterKiller]

and I'm really sick of comp sci. & engineering nerds trying to imitate kung fu when they know nothing of it. The kind of people who understand nothing of the subtleties between various styles, or even between different eastern cultures. You have japanese swords in these movies being used by kung fu exponents.

Yuen Woo Ping directed all the fight scenes. I think he knows a thing or two about the subtleties of styles and difference in culture. They are just trying to bring something new to the screen, for crying out loud. Don't be so sensitive.

In watching the previews for the movie I see yet another martial arts movie coming out later this summer apparently called "kill bill". That movie looks like kung fu + Bring It On. It's a teenie movie or something.

Kill Bill is Quentin Tarrantino's ode to the Shaw Brothers. It's not going to be a kiddie movie, by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, early reports are that this is the bloodiest Kung Fu flick ever made.

but these movies just blend it all into one hoky exchange after another where people exchange lines in between strikes. It's silly and I think it just gives a false picture.

It's a movie, not a history lesson. Movies tell a story by exaggerating real life to make the lesson more interesting.

The Matrix indeed is hostile to religion, the movie itself has religious pretensions, and I don't want enlightenment(or shen dao) from the Wachowski brothers who made this movie. I'm not looking for that in a movie.

I don't think the movie is hostile toward religion at all. Don't get mad just because not everyone believes what you do.

[KC Elbows]

I'm sorry, I love kung fu and much of the culture surrounding it, but by that token, the movie must then go into the scientific philosphies behind the culture that developed photography, the work ethic of Murnau, the history of european style, ad infinitum.

Everyone wants to see their style on film, except for the average movie goer. It is a visual medium.

And of course the movie would remind you of CTHD, it's the same fight director, it's like saying that you noticed stylistic resemblances between Apocolypse Now and 2001.

I'm totally unclear on how it is anti-religion.

[shaolin kungfu]

Yeah, i'm missing the anti-religion thing too.

[MasterKiller]

I think MA just got rubbed the wrong way because the movie wasn't written from his religion's perspective.

[shaolin kungfu]

I think MA just got rubbed the wrong way because the movie wasn't written from his religion's perspective.

Maybe, but how would the matrix have turned out if jesus was running around healing people and walking on water?

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


Maybe, but how would the matrix have turned out if jesus was running around healing people and walking on water?

Jesus had no kung fu. He'd be a sitting duck for Agent Smith.

[@PLUGO]

Maybe the Anit-religion view comes from the "post-modern" take on those "spiritual" tid-bits peppered through-out the movie...

free-will vs. destiny

meeting "god"

accessing the "keys" behind the reality... etc...


Yeah it's silly to expect a tretis on Kungfu "culture" from a movie whose majore theme hinges on the debate between the authenticity and illusion of culture.

The only depiction of "culture" in that movie where the scenes in Zion, Which BTW looks like a hella fun place to be as distopian futures go...

The whole nature of the matrix includes a lack of any real culture, just like the debate on the flavor of chicken. SO these charactors are by their nature "downloading" whatever they need as they need it, with no context.

Why did morpheus grab a Katana? Because it was closest... as he's the "master" he's certainly not going to be hampered by illusionary distinctions between "Chinese & Japanese" arts.... Hell in the martix who's to say there is even a "chinese" or "japanese." It's just the MATRIX...
THAT'S THE POINT OF THE FILM
It's ONLY with-in the Matrix and outside the Matrix...

how silly to impose one's own assumptions onto the film...

on another level... if you're a Kungfu practicioner and are in a desperate fight where you come accross a set of Tonfa... Are you NOT going to use them because they're Okinawian????

If you want to see a Kungfu Movie steeped in the culture & history of China see HERO . Of course there's Wire work in there as well...

I've seen only one preview of Kill Bill and I'm totally Jazzed to check it out... why?
[list=1][*]
Tarantino generally cranks out entertaining flick[*]Uma Therman is HOT HOT HOT[*]It'll be a much better "P!SS TAKE" than Charlie's Angels[*]Gordon Leu & What's his face "STREETFIGHTER" will be in it[/list=1]

So... if you don't want to see Kungfu fiction... pick up an instructional video...however, be warned; You won't find many beautiful women dressed in PVC there...

[KC Elbows]

As for the japanese sword thing, the chinese used such swords as well.

In all other ways, what DS said.

Although, DS, couldn't one still take the stance that meeting the architect, the keymaker, and all that was just meeting programs, not meeting deities and such? Those things don't seem to exclude an interpretation of the story that includes religion in a conventional sense, because they are meaningless outside of the matrix, if there is an outside of the matrix. Even the architect could become an exiled program, and thus a demon by the matrix definition, not a fallen god.

[@PLUGO]

Although, DS, couldn't one still take the stance that meeting the architect, the keymaker, and all that was just meeting programs, not meeting deities and such? Those things don't seem to exclude an interpretation of the story that includes religion in a conventional sense, because they are meaningless outside of the matrix, if there is an outside of the matrix. Even the architect could become an exiled program, and thus a demon by the matrix definition, not a fallen god.

Now this sort of brings up a sort of Tar baby situation eh?

Yeah "programs" like the architect, the keymaker etc are just program yet can they also be godforms? dieties or Avatars?
Sort of goes into a what is "god" debate. It's understood that renegade programs are "demons" after a fashion... Could the Oracle also be such a renegade program?
Does that imply that such programs that are not renegade are fullfilling an essential role with-in the function of the Matrix/universe? Like a god of rain?
The word Seraph is a type of Angel and is the name of the Oracle's bodyguard. Along those lines that glimpse of his particular code was significant, he is beyond the fabric of that reality. Make me wonder what the Oracle's code looks like... however, by her nature it's easy to assume it looks like the rest of the world.

Now the Architect is obviously a creator-father-figure... Along those line certainly he could be considered a god... and sure if an upgrade makes him obsolete he can become a demon... very much like how christianity turns older god into either Saints (which are still useful in effect control with-in the new cosmology) or Demons (gods like PAN who's horns & hooves have been appropiated for depiction as a devil- interestingly the aspect for which Pan was worshiped reflect cultural values frowned upon by the christian church conrol system).
meanwhile Neo himself is obviously flirting with devinity. His choice seems to also be between:

1. following the way of the previous "ones" (that of the Martyr)
2. Or pioneering a "NEW" way (Buddha?)

Does the Architect's inability to effect the world outside the Matrix disqualify him for "godhood?"

Firstly, it's unknown if the Architect cannot effect the outside world. There IS an intelligence behind those Sentinal/Squids...
Also if I may goe all Jo Cambell for a moment. Might the Arcitect be a Mask for the great (mechanical) Godhead behind both the Matrix & the Machines?

Consider also does the god-of-the-mind or the intellectual conception of "god" have power over the body? With-in the Body (outside the matrix) there is a whole other system at work much older than that of the mind. That system has it's own Pantheon (named by the mind as Heart, lungs, kidneys, etc...) autonomous from the pantheon of the mind/matrix.
Yet it is unknowable if one can exist with-out the other... very much like the humans' & machine relationship. Explored wonderfully in the conversation between Neo & the Pro-council in the engine level.


Did that make ANY sence?

[WinterPalm]

THe first Matrix movie had a unique novelity. It was something new and interesting with a great soundtrack, a hot herione, a pathetic skinny white guy loser nerd saving the world and hilarious poorly done, yet somewhat great kung fu. The second one is just cashing in on the first and skips the whole concept of an ending, opting instead for a to be concluded cop out like some bloody sitcom televisison show. The movie had a weak story, horrible acting and too much nonsense. Half of it, I spent wanting them to blow **** up and kill people but they wasted it. Another thing is that the original had something different in the way it was filmed and edited and this was just thrown together without any thought of serious consideration. It was horrible.

Oh yeah, my bike was stolen while i was watching the **** thing and I will kill them when I find them.
Props to those that don't waste their money on this garbage.

HOwever, the gaspar noe film, Irreversible is going to be playing in my city and I look forward to seeing it.

[shaolin kungfu]

The second movie may seem incomplete because it's really only half a movie. It was filmed as one movie, but had to be split in two to conform to time. There was no "cop out". Bad planning maybe, but no cop out.

I'm guessing that if you don't like metaphysics, mythology, theology and that sort of stuff, your not going to like it. I'm looking forward to seeing it as soon as possible.

[cho]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
The second one is just cashing in on the first

I think that was the whole point of the trilogy. The first movie could stand by itself. if it didn't sell, they wouldn't make part 2 or 3.
sorry about your bike.

from people I know that watch only Hollywood movies, they said it was awesome, others said it was a special-effects masturbation. I'm waiting when it comes to discount cinema.

[StickyHands]

I have to agree, first one was lot better. At least it had "realism" instead of "Matrixism" and "conandrum." I found myslef yawning plenty of time which were absent during the first movie. May be because they didnt introduce any thing rarely appealing or new to it like the first one, i.e. slow motion, bullet trails. However, the fighting scenes were good, good kung fu, and I liked it when he was flying like hell and buildings were crashing behind him because of the speed. Some of the run-on and endless, pointless jargons was redudnant.

And umm, the sword Morpheus used was what looked like a katana. A samurai sword, I doubt the chinese used the same swords at all. Their swords are broader and much different. Show me otherwise! The Japanese are distinct for it! And I dont think the Matrix cared if kung fu was chinese. Kung fu is kung fu, they chose it cause it deals with fighting.

[dwid]

Regarding perceived incontinuities in martial arts related stuff.... really, who cares. It's a movie, and nothing is inconsistent given the rules they've set up that govern the world in which the movie takes place.

Someone complained earlier in the thread that they are sick of computer geeks trying to ape kung fu without understanding its nuances. I for one am sick of MA geeks criticizing media for the minutae that nobody else cares about. It's a sci fi/ action movie, not an instructional video.

Anyway, I thought the story was pretty cool in the sequel.

I've concluded that Zion is just another part of the matrix, which sets us up for a very interesting final installment. If Neo (and the others living in Zion) never left the matrix and the matrix has been around for hundreds of years, then everything we saw in the first film about what the "real" world looks like is suddenly in question. For all we know, there is no place to escape to outside the matrix. The entire earth could be uninhabitable.