Some questions

[tparkerkfo]

Can we and should we be able to question information that is publicly provided? Or should we just accept it? HOw can we or should we respond when and if we see a problem in information?

I personally do not like being pigeon holed as favoring one group or against another. I am ping ponged by many sides depending on my current view. I have many friends from many factions that do not like eachother. I am not partial to any one in particular. I view peopple on individual merit, not because someone else is "enemies" with them. PArt of that is seeking out information on my own. And I have questions. Why is that bad? Why should I dis a vow the very intellegence that made the western world advance so far? One of the things that makes us human is the ability to reason, and we should do so the best we can. This means quesitoning and thinking critically about various topics as well as pointing out mis statements and false statements.

So, am I an enemy because I question?

Tom
________
THE CIGAR BOSS

[reneritchie]

One of the things I like most about HFY is the detailed level of analysis and rigorous testing (challenges) they put everything through (I actually do like HFY, its some of the posters I have problems with).

IMHO, respectful questions are merely the same type of analysis and rigorous testing (challenges). I put everything I come across through this process. I think we all do to one degree or another.

Attacks on the other hand (XYZ sux, so-and-so sifu is a liar), IMHO, have no place here. They disrespect all of us, and they make people defensive, destroying the potential for real exchange and growth.

[committment]

Rene/Tom

As you know, I'm a HFY member. I only speak for myself and nobody else. I agreeded that this forum have no place for degrading remarks, but its gonna happen. If people don't believe what they read, people automatically degrade what is said. Every few days I log on to this forum for no more than 30 minutes. Instead of reading about the different aspects of wing chun through respectable/tough conversations on different threads, I have to fight for what I believe in. Just like you will defend what you believe in, whether its martial arts/line of work/car you drive/favorite restaurants...etc. I don't want to have to spend those precious 30 minutes defend my kung fu family, dispelling rumours poeple just make up like some tabloid magazines. Tom, it's not the questions you are asking, but what is asked. When you question my Sifu's credentials, you are insulting my Sifu. I have no choice but to defend my Sifu, because my Sifu does not have a voice in this forum. I believe, through conversations with my sihings, that this type of language was carried over from the wcml. I DO NOT believe it will end here in this forum. Just my $.02


Josh

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by reneritchie
One of the things I like most about HFY is the detailed level of analysis and rigorous testing (challenges) they put everything through (I actually do like HFY, its some of the posters I have problems with).

IMHO, respectful questions are merely the same type of analysis and rigorous testing (challenges). I put everything I come across through this process. I think we all do to one degree or another.

I'd like to hear the methodology of analysis and testing from HFY or any other lineage. IMO, Wing Chun is derived from analysis of everything that has become a component of the system and the discarding of excess or less effective means from the system.

Too bad no public records exist of how the ancestors figured it all out. That would be a good read.

[yuanfen]

Tom P. sez:

Why should I dis a vow the very intellegence that made the western world advance so far? One of the things that makes us human is the ability to reason, and we should do so the best we can. This means quesitoning and thinking critically about various topics as well as pointing out mis statements and false statements.
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((TomP---I have disagreed with you on some things--- but your curiosity is genuine IMO. BUT---"intelligence" and "critical thinking" is not a "western" monopoly. I am sure you dont mean it that way- but the phrasing is misleading of your intent-Descartes- I Think.therefore I am not!!!))
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Rene sez:
(I actually do like HFY, its some of the posters I have problems with).
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((I think the reverse is true for me.)))
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Commitment sez:
I believe, through conversations with my sihings, that this type of language was carried over from the wcml. I DO NOT believe it will end here in this forum.
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((Hey Commitment- Why bring in the wcml rather than deal with the subjects here. I am not a member of wcml--and I have questioned things re HFY on KFO
quite a bit myself. Got challenged by the leader of the southwetsern branch no less!!And- on the wcml when I was there I also spoke my mind. I left on my own back around the summer of 2000 and my "debates" with the then leading lights of that list including moderator Rene were quite intense. I dont know what goes on there and dont particularly care..but I wish them well. But Commitment- you paint with a broad brush here on KFO. This is not a closed list which dumps email on you. Its a forum that you have intentionally to click on to read....or anlogous to a kiosk or bulletin board.
Coversations do get incredibly bogged down here but Sandman has done a
good though thankless task in forum moderation . And wingchunners on the net can be atleast as unsociable a crowd
as chessplayers at a tournament ...an unsociable lot <ugh>.
And there is quite a bit of diversity of views at KFo---though the temptation of exiting is often there -because of demands on time- like Alex has done..Rene has not brought the wcml into the discussions here and not being a moderator has played a more interesting role in the discusiions. People evolve.
No point in being personal with Tom, Rene or anyone else here.
The critiques of HFY from so many wc perspectives is quite unique and should give food for thought.
But if you still have the same ideas on HFY after the discussions here- not to worry. There is life after forums and lists and internet discussions-guaranteed <VBG>)).

[tparkerkfo]

Commitment,

I hear your words and I agree 100%. Time is precious and I hate the bickering. Although I am confused about how you fight and defend your sifu as this was your first post, or did you have another handle? Anyways, I have asked questions. I even asked Gee sifu himself some others. He was very interested in answering questions, even ones I did not bring up. I have NOT tried to discredit Gee sifu anytime, anywhere, anyhow! I HAVE asked questions. If information is presented, then it should be OK to ask. If it is sensitive, then it has no business being put out there to start with. If you see me attacking or discrediting HFY at all, please let me know. Tell me both in person and privately. I find it hard to believe that every one knows my motives better than I. Think. Please. I am not an enemy, just currious. And if you put out bad info, it will be noticed by someone and in turn it will be questioned. I have taken heat by many people over the years, but few can honestly claim that I am disingenious. I love martial arts of all flavors with my favorite being the southern hands, which HFY claims to be.

Joy,
Thanks for pointing out the errors of my words. I often word things incorrectly. LOL. Indeed that was not my intent at all. When I said the western world, I meant in the broadest sense. But I suppose even that is to narrow. I am only familiar with a small bit of knowledge, so I am not even going to imply the eastern POV. LOL. But my point is that we shouldn't stop thinking critically just because some one tells us something or others don't like what is said.

As for disagreeing, LOL that is OK and healthy. Your far more experienced and wiser than I am, and I respect that. But I will still challenge... and eat my words most of the time. LOL. both (Tesla and Edison) and (Jefferson and Adams) were always disagreeing, but all are well respected. So I guess we are in good company. LOL.

Tom
________
Threesome Blonde

[yuanfen]

Tom-

The Jefferson- Adams correspndence is one of the great models of
communication between opposing perspectives and perhaps what coluldda been here.
The Jefferson- Hamilton relationships- less so. But Aaron Burr's "challenge" sure changed things..though he didnt say- your place or mine or claim that Chan harmony was broken-thereby requiring the challenge <g>.

[committment]

This is not a closed list which dumps email on you. Its a forum that you have intentionally to click on to read....or anlogous to a kiosk or bulletin board.
Coversations do get incredibly bogged down here but Sandman has done a
good though thankless task in forum moderation . And wingchunners on the net can be atleast as unsociable a crowd
as chessplayers at a tournament ...an unsociable lot <ugh>.
And there is quite a bit of diversity of views at KFo---though the temptation of exiting is often there -because of demands on time- like Alex has done..Rene has not brought the wcml into the discussions here and not being a moderator has played a more interesting role in the discusiions. People evolve.
No point in being personal with Tom, Rene or anyone else here.
The critiques of HFY from so many wc perspectives is quite unique and should give food for thought.
But if you still have the same ideas on HFY after the discussions here- not to worry. There is life after forums and lists and internet discussions-guaranteed <VBG> )). Yuanfen



Yuanfen,

Yes, there is life before/after these discussion forums. Yes, Sandman does a good job of moderation. Yes, you are also right in that the list does not dump email on me. But if whoever dumps on my lineage, that becomes my problem. You are also right in that there is a bit of diversity of views on this forum, no doubt. Everybody's entitle to them. That makes great conversations. But if the point of views are made base on false accusations or made-up rumours, like recently on the threads, then I got to let those audience, who just reads on the forum, have a better understanding of the lineage.


Josh

[InfiniteApogee]

I have read that hfy claims to be very scientific and bases everything on science. Well if this is true, then the hfy people can expect nothing less than to be questioned and disbelieved on every single claim they make. Why? Simple. The scientific method demands that the validity of any scienists results be immediately questioned and double checked by other independent scientist. If I were to come out and claim that I had just achieved cold fusion and could do so again, every other scientist on the planet would be wanting to know exactly what I claimed to have done and would try to reproduce the results for themselves. If you take out the niceties of it, the scientific method requires that any experiment be treated as if you believed the original researcher is either lying or is mistaken. You cannot take them at their word, and must validate everything for yourself. When enough people have done this, the scientific community comes to the consesus that the results must be valid.
The hfy people come out and claim to have 1) the true origin story and family tree of wing chun, and 2) the true system of wing chun that somehow deals with time, space, and the strong and weak nuclear forces in ways that no other system does. Since it is supposed to be based on science, all hfy people should expect to be treated with skepticism and disbelief, and have their evidence called into question, per the scientific method. It has nothing to with agendas or politics, at least not originally. It's just how the workld works. If you come out and make claims, and then when those claims are treated with proper skepticism, and calls for validation, you scream about "dishonour" and "you're insulting my sifu", makes you sound very unscientific. Now some people here are obviously trying to just goad or troll people, but not all.
People will continue to question all these claims about having the true whatever it is. And the longer hfy people go without answering these questions in simple direct ways, the more the questions will grow. I do mean simple, not the quantum physics lingo that has been passing around.
I for one, along with many others, am curious about hfy and would like to hear some simple, direct, and efficient answers to some very basic questions at the least, like what is meant by directional and dimensional energy/fighting, and how do these differ from the other wing chun systems? I asked this somewhere else so will look there, but just wanted to give an example.
There is nothing wrong with questioning. It is the correct action anytime new research or information is brought forth. Anyone who shys away from the spotlight of proper skeptical questions, only gives the appearance that they have something to hide.

Peace
Clark

[Block]

I have to agree with InfiniteApogee(good post btw). If you're going to make such claims the onus is on you to prove your claims, with facts not hearsay.

If you can't, then it is no ones fault but your own that the rest of the community doesn't recognise your position.

[reneritchie]

Gee sifu has made it clear he doesn't mind questions and understands that, HFY being something new to most people, there will be questions and criticism, not to mention healthy skepticism. As HFY champion, I firmly believe that any and all questions only give HFY a chance to further expose itself to the WCK community, to rebuild bridges and remend fences, and to demonstrate the high road, turning the other cheek, and leading by example.

Please don't hesitate to stop by my thread and ask any and all questions!

[tparkerkfo]

HI All,

I am going to be slowly fading into the background as my time and focus needs to be reprioitized....much to somes relief I am sure. I will post when I can.


Clark,
What you say is 100% true. They will be questioned. Infact, even if they are not "scientific", they will be questioned by the mere fact that they are on the net. We all have been questioned to some degree. And as they say, the greater the claims, the greater the proof. Know wonder people like Tsui Shun Tin and other great WC sifus don't get too public. Anyways, these squables are not reserved for wing chun, or even martial arts, folks. Look at any scientific communifty. Would you want to stand between Richard Leakey or Donald Johanseen? Sorry about the spelling.

I also understand human nature to want to stand up for your self and your friends. No one would willingly study a "bad" art. So we all think we have somethng special, and maybe we do. I have been on the bad end of sifu bashing. Heck, I think Dessert Wing Chun and Rolling Hand both are doing this currently dispite the fact that they hate others doing it. LOL. It aint no fun. being on the short end of that stick...or would it be the long end in this case?

My lineage has "questions". People have posted them, and they have been answered. And in the end, the real answers are in the hands anyways. I have not sensed that my teacher is upset about being questioned. He invites questions, as do I. I have heard this story and that about my lineage. I ask others that have questions, to raise them. I want to know the dirt. If My teacher is misleading me, I want to know. So far, I have not found anything that pushes me away. In fact, it has pushed me to want to learn more from him. Questioning is good. Questioning is Healthy. Questioning is vital. It is what took the western world out of the dark ages, and in one case according to legend, led to the development of wing chun by designing a system that could deal with other systems.

Just my thoughts
TOm
________
Toys *****

[desertwingchun2]

Tom Parker says:

"I have been on the bad end of sifu bashing. Heck, I think Dessert Wing Chun and Rolling Hand both are doing this currently dispite the fact that they hate others doing it."

Tom I have never "bashed" your sifu. None of them. Not your Hung Ga sifu and not any of those you claim as your Wing Chun sifu.

Due to the fact you are unable to hold intellegent technical discussions, have no concept of Mo Duk and often speak from both sides of your mouth I chose to discontinue any and all discussions with you. That resulted in these occasions where you attempt to insult, bait and goad me. Grow up!

In the most sincere manner I again offer to you ..... mend your ways, keep your nose clean and mind your business.

"Anyone who shys away from the spotlight of proper skeptical questions, only gives the appearance that they have something to hide." - Clark

"I am going to be slowly fading into the background as my time and focus needs to be reprioitized...." - Tom Parker

The way of the warrior is to be resolved and advance quickly. Hmmm ....

-David

[captain]

hey r and r,why do you now do "sumn nung" wing chun
and not the yks that you demonstrate in your books?

russ

[tparkerkfo]

David,

I complety accept your POV. You ofcourse have every right to it. But I ask a few questions. Why do you continue to post to me if you are really ignoring me? I point out your hypocrasies, as I do others. Sorry you don't like it. Now, am I unable to discuss technically, or is that how you perceive it? Where have I been unable. Yes I do not have a high level of iknowledge in many areas. I offer what little I have. Are you suggesting that you are completly competant in all areas of wing chun? Can you really hold on a technical conversation in wing chun? I suppose you can. But with who? All our POV's break down at a certain level. I doubt you can hold a discussion tecnhically with the likes of TST. But am I gonna slam you for it? What i think you dislike is that I am open with my positionin wing chun. I do not hide behind anything. I will tell you I suck up front. The trick is that sucking is relative. Do I suck really? And compared to who?

For give me, I think I have made in error. Your better at wing chun than I gave you credit for. You have not bashed my "sifu", instead you were much more percise and economical and focused that on me. LOL. But you have made remarks.

I have talked with many people on the internet. I have not always got along with all. I have had heated discussion with Joy, Chango, and Geezer from this list. I hope that none take it personally. I like to think I have a very good report with most people and the people I most respect in wing chun cyberspace all seem to respect me. I would hope that any one that has an issue would be man/lady enough to step up and tell me I am out of line or an idiot. Can't change my behaviour if I don't know it is bad. So far you are one. I await the others to let me know. My mo duk? Give me an example where it is bad. Not saying it hasn't been, but by and large I think I do pretty well.

I agree we should stop discussing things together, would be good. I haven't seen much value in discusing any thing with you, and apparently you the same in me. I just request you point out my lack of mo duk and where in particular you have issues. I am a grown man, and willing to work them out. LOL.

Tom
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Half-Baked