Rene - HFY Champion!

[mun hung]

Can any of the HFY practitioners answer my simple question? I am not associated with any of the posters you dislike.

Why those two hand positions in "bai jong"? Why not something else? It's just a simple question with nothing to do with history which seems like the main source of disagreement here.

Maybe we can get a couple of HFY guy/gals to help discuss the differences between Yip Man Wing Chun and HFY Wing Chun (applications, theory, etc.) since a great deal of HFY practitioners have learned both.

Rene - you get the mad props, dawg!

[t_niehoff]

Hi Chango,

Chango wrote:

Where did the Chi sau methods come from and why do they look alot like reworded version of the 14 kiu sau methods of Chi sim? Why didn't the Chi Sim lineage get credit for this information? I know is it just a coincidence that there are 14 kiu sau and 14 chi sau methods! LOL! C

Well, interestingly enough, Robert now has 18 chi sao methods (it started off with 12, he added 2, and he's added 4 more) -- and as we've discussed before these are simply ways of organizing material (nothing "new" in the material, just the organization) to help students understand some of the strategies/tactics when sticking. BTW, Benny should get some of the credit for Robert adopting these methods, as it was because Benny could not grasp many of these "ideas" in chi sao when he visited Robert for lessons that led Robert to look for some means of organization to better get across those ideas -- this led to his adoption of the keywords. And as you know, if you compare Andreas' 14 kiu sao keywords with Robert's keywords, you won't find much overlap. TN

can you explain where some of the aspects of what you practice came from? Especially since it does not look like Koolau or Moy Yat or anything Hawkins Cheung ever has presented or anything like what is listed as the sources? C

I will be happy to explain anything about Robert's curriculum if you want to ask specifically, and I'll do it clearly and simply (without resorting to buzzwords or vague phrases). As I look at it and have said before, WCK is WCK and we all have the same things (only the "true believers" in marketing hype believe they are something special). Since WCK is conceptual, it is not surprising that different people express those concepts differently; this is how it should be -- after all, we are all individuals. Gu Lao is YMWCK is YKSWCK is all WCK when you get to the root; only the flower differs. It is only the shallow, superficial mind that is concerned with the superficial. TN

Terence

[canglong]

"BTW, Benny should get some of the credit for Robert adopting these methods, as it was because Benny could not grasp many of these "ideas" in chi sao when he visited Robert for lessons that led Robert to look for some means of organization to better get across those ideas -- this led to his adoption of the keywords." - Terence

Terence are you trying to get us to believe that Master Meng, who took instruction under the venerable Chan Yiu Min who was the son of Chan Wah Shun, the first teacher of Yip Man, under the Venerable Moy Yat, under GrandMaster Gee, and under Grandmaster Hoffman could not make sense of what Robert Chu had to say but the problem was on Master Meng's side. You flatter yourself too much because if you can make since of what Robert is teaching then I am positive Master Meng can as well.

Not to mention I thought you were against organized formulas.

[Geezer]

t_niehoff Wrote>

BTW, Benny should get some of the credit for Robert adopting these methods, as it was because Benny could not grasp many of these "ideas" in chi sao when he visited Robert for lessons that led Robert to look for some means of organization to better get across those ideas -- this led to his adoption of the keywords.

I'm going to make a note to remember today.......I think the is the first time t_niehoff has come out with something comical.....next he'll be saying "I should kill you all"

t_niehoff, keep up the good work

Sheldon

[t_niehoff]

Hi Tony,

Top of the mornin' to ya . . .

canalong wrote:

Terence are you trying to get us to believe that Master Meng, who took instruction under the venerable Yip Man, C

What? I believe Yip was long dead when Benny took up WCK. Did Benny study with Leung Jan too. TN

under the Venerable Moy Yat, under GrandMaster Gee, and under Grandmaster Hoffman C

Benny hadn't met Garrett or Andreas before he visited Robert. I'm sure he has grown a great deal since he met with Robert. FWIW, Robert is the person who suggested to Benny that he visit Garrett, and it was Robert that made HFY (then Hung Suen WCK) public in CWC. TN

could not make sense of what Robert Chu had to say but the problem was on Master Meng's side. C

Well, that's exactly the situation. We're all human, after all. Benny taped his chi sao sessions with Robert -- ask him to see the tape. Or ask Benny about his doing chi sao with Robert's students. *Ask Benny* -- don't assume things. TN

You flatter yourself too much because if you can make since of what Robert is teaching then I am positive Master Meng can as well. C

You can be "positive" but you've never met me, and you don't know my skills or my level of understanding. FWIW, I've been practicing WCK as long as "Master Meng." And I haven't spent most of my training time practicing tae kwon do. TN

Not to mention I thought you were against organized formulas. C

The keywords are not a formula; they provide a means of organizing material in a way that is easily remembered -- that's all. TN

Terence

[Geezer]

t_niehoff Wrote>

FWIW, I've been practicing WCK as long as "Master Meng." And I haven't spent most of my training time practicing tae kwon do.

Looks like you haven't done your homework,

FYI>

He started his martial arts training in Hong Kong (1970-Judo). He began broadening his skills and knowledge with Tae Kwon Do training in 1974 under Grand Master Y.C. Kim (9th Dan, WTF) in the United States. Additional Tae Kwon Do training included Grand Master K. J. Park, former Head Judge at the Kuk Ki Won, the Korean Headquarters for Tae Kwon Do. He has enjoyed the privilege of studying under several famous Kung Fu Grand Masters from various styles. Beginning in 1981, Benny Meng embarked on an extended study of martial arts that took him to: Hong Kong (1981-Tai Chi Mantis & Ving Tsun) Mainland China (1983-Shaolin Temple and Sichuan Sports University), Korea (1985-Tae Kwon Do with the Korean National Team) and Taiwan (1985-Shaolin, Chi Kung).

Benny Meng began his Wing Chun Kung Fu training in Hong Kong in 1982 under the movie star Sifu Lee Hoi Sang, a student of Jiu Wan. Jiu Wan had completed training in the Wing Chun system through Chan Yiu Min in China prior to beginning his training with Yip Man. Chan Yiu Min was the son of Chan Wah Shun, the first teacher of Yip Man. Benny Meng’s training under Lee Hoi Sang was interrupted after 1½ years of intense study by his return to the United States. He resumed full time training under Sifu Moy Yat in New York City in 1985.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Sheldon,

How about this quote from of Benny's "credentials" from Benny's website:

"He has fought and won against some of the "world's best," both in the U.S. and in the Orient." (VTM website, Benny Meng bio).

Is he talking about tae kwon do matches or what? Who are these "world's best"? TN

Terence

[hunt1]

To Sheldon and Canglong
I just know I am going to regret getting into this but as a neutral party I can tell you that in this case I know from direct personal contact that Terence is 100% accurate.

[Geezer]

Deleted by Geezer

[Geezer]

Deleted by Geezer

[t_niehoff]

Sheldon,

Benny makes his living teaching tae kwon do. He's been doing it longer, practicing it more, than anything else. His own "credentials" demonstrate that. Your posting it only helped proved my point. And, apparently it is not even up-to-date, as he also now teaches krav maga too! So many things besides WCK. But it is not surprising that someone who writes and posts their own "credentials" might phrase it in such a way as to present a certain slant. So let's get back to my question: what were these fights and who were these "world's best"?

Terence

[Geezer]

Deleted by Geezer

[Geezer]

Deleted by Geezer

[hunt1]

Sheldon this in only reply I will give to you or anyone on this subject. I have no wish to be part of any faith based discussion. My knowledge of the events is from 1998 . I had personal contact with Benny and Robert. One of the reasons I went to see Robert is because Benny had started studying from Robert. Benny and another well know wing chun teacher recommended Robert to me as the best person in the U.S. to answer my questions.

[reneritchie]

Dear hijackers,

While I'm sure many of the posts you are making seem very important to you, this thread is not about insulting each other, dissing each others arts or teachers or families, kicking each others dogs, or p!$$!ng in each others pools.

Please exercise some respect, some self control, and please put the art of WCK ahead of any petty personal grudges, real or imagined.

I started this thread as a paradigm shift, a radical departure from what had come before. I grew tired of the repetitive BS from everyone (yes everyone), the growing lunancy, the mounting tension, the snow balling ill-will, and wanted to try something new, some way to make people pause and hopefully reconsider.

I chose humor as an important ingredient, even a level of absurdity in an effort to cut through the tension (such as the self-proclamation of HFY Champ - sure to get attention). I figured people laughing together, even at me, would make it harder to insult each other. I did it to such an overblown extent I thought it impossible anyone could mistake it for anything else. And within that distended envelop, I tried to give everyone a second chance.

Many people here b!tch and p!ss about how unfair, stupid, evil, conspiratorial, disrespectful, ignorant, arrogant, etc. everyone else is, but never seem to realize it applies to all of us. In this context, for the last couple years, we've all suc|(ed (yup, you to!).

Why me, many have asked. To that I ask back, why not *you*? Why didn't you do it first? Why didn't you offer that hand, build that bridge, answer that question, admit that mistake, offer that second chance? (BS, don't give me that, you didn't and you know it).

But old habits die hard. Even here, in a thread dedicated to improving HFY's image, people can't stop picking at it, both those who habitually attack it, and those who do as much damage "defending" it.

Grow up. Take your petty personal attacks to your own threads. You want to discuss each other? Make your own thread. You want to discuss Benny Meng or Robert Chu or me or you or the guy in the post before or after, start your own thread.

We're no infallible gods here, and we're not discussing anything even remotely important like which of the two dying children gets the doner heart or how much money will go to the malaria vaccine program as opposed to cancer research. We're not discussing whether to spend the last few dollars on paying the rent or buying food. We're discussing a hobby, a past time, something meant to be enjoyed, and in that discussion we are all going to be, fairly continuously, *wrong*.

Knowing that, knowing that we're basically shooting the $#!t around a tea table, we gotta be a special type of morons to build up the animosity sizzling around here.

So, I'm taking back this thread.

To people with questions about HFY or Gee sifu (which he has said he doesn't mind and understands), if you wish to participate in this thread, you will ask them respectfully, in a way you would appreciate people asking them of your sifu, your system, yourself. If someone insults you for asking, you will not respond, you will ignore them. If they do it more than once, you will place them on ignore.

To people with knowledge of HFY or Gee sifu, if you wish to participate in this thread, you will answer any polite, HFY related question asked politely and respectfully with the knowledge that you reflect on HFY and Gee sifu, and you want that reflection to be as good as possible. If you find a question insulting or beyond your ability to answer, you will not respond, you will ignore it. If you see it from the same poster more than once, you will place them on ignore.

It's time to show the cards. Who can raise the bar? Who can lead by example? Who posts here to learn and share and grow as martial artists and who posts here only to cause problems and worsen relations? No more BS, the bets are in and you've all been called.

Behave, or get the #e!! off my thread.